== Meeting information == * #ubuntu-meeting: CC catchup with the desktop team and DMB, 04 Jun at 17:01 — 18:13 UTC * Full logs at [[http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-04-17.01.log.html]] == Meeting summary == === Catch up with the Desktop Team === The discussion about "Catch up with the Desktop Team" started at 17:01. === Catch up with the Developer Membership Board === The discussion about "Catch up with the Developer Membership Board" started at 17:32. === Any other business === The discussion about "Any other business" started at 18:11. == Vote results == == Done items == * (none) == People present (lines said) == * mhall119 (79) * dholbach (68) * willcooke (44) * seb128 (36) * micahg (26) * cyphermox (22) * pleia2 (13) * sabdfl (9) * cprofitt (7) * meetingology (4) * ubottu (1) * elfy (1) == Full Log == 17:01 #startmeeting CC catchup with the desktop team and DMB 17:01 Meeting started Thu Jun 4 17:01:00 2015 UTC. The chair is mhall119. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 17:01 17:01 Available commands: action commands idea info link nick 17:01 #chair cprofitt dholbach pleia2 17:01 Current chairs: cprofitt dholbach mhall119 pleia2 17:01 hello all 17:01 #topic Catch up with the Desktop Team 17:01 hi sabdfl 17:01 hi willcooke and seb128, anyone else here for the desktop team? 17:01 hey seb128 and willcooke - how are things? 17:01 mhall119, dholbach - just us I think 17:01 hey there! things are good :-) 17:02 right, so it's exciting times for the desktop team isn't it? :) 17:02 loving the steady stream of news 17:02 mhall119, it's always exciting time in some ways ;-) 17:02 How was the feedback from the last release? Did you get many bug reports? 17:03 Release was solid 17:03 Really impressive considering the under-the-hood changes 17:03 how is the convergence going? What exciting things should we expect on 15.10 and 16.04? 17:03 willcooke: you mean systemd? 17:03 feedback was mostly good, we got reports, as always, but not too many 17:03 mhall119, ya 17:04 willcooke: I didn't notice any difference, so very well done to all on that 17:04 kudos to pitti and didrocks 17:04 cprofitt, 15.10 will see a Snappy based Desktop Next 17:04 ready for testing and playing 17:04 Good news is that the image is now booting :) 17:04 The only issue I have had so far is the trash launcher opening up an extra file window. More annoying than anything critical. I would agree it was a good launch. 17:04 willcooke: what is the play for making that available to people? 17:05 will it be an ISO, a disk image, a VM image? 17:06 mhall119, it'll be an "image" to start with but there is installer work currently being looked at by the Snappy team 17:06 awesome 17:06 Did you get offers of help for the brave new desktop world? Or new folks who hangout in the channel? 17:07 so everyone knows, I'll be working with will's team this cycle in my capacity on the Community Team to get more information out to users who wants to try out, test, and contribute to Unity 8 and snappy desktop 17:07 dholbach, not really no 17:08 I think it's a bit too new still 17:08 do you think there's enough contributors could do to help out? 17:08 we are likely to get more people once things get going 17:08 mhall119: just to be clear is there 'normal' desktop and 'snappy' desktop? 17:08 ok..... still a bit too bleeding edge? 17:08 cprofitt: there will be both yes 17:08 IIRC, the "snappy" desktop will only be Mir and Unity 8 17:08 correct 17:08 But there are also interesting things going on in the "normal" desktop for U8 and Mir too... 17:08 dholbach, yeah, I guess so 17:08 cprofitt: though don't get too used to calling the previous way of doing things "normal" :) 17:08 You can run a U8 session on your desktop 17:09 willcooke: you mean the LXC packages? 17:09 and also there is work going on to allow Mir to run in a special way on top of X org, 17:09 so for example 17:09 seb128, let us know when you feel it's the right time to reach out to people - I know that many are waiting for the cool new thing - it'd be great if we could involve some of them :) 17:09 If you're developing an app with Mir, you'll be able to test it our there on your U7/Xorg desktop with out changing sessions 17:09 +1 dholbach yes, the desktop side of the house is waiting for the next cool thing. 17:10 dholbach, yeah 17:10 Not many of us have devices to help with 'touch'. 17:10 cool 17:10 willcooke: so once people have a running instance of Mir/Unity8 from whatever way they get it running, what can they do to help make the snappy desktop better for 15.10? 17:11 mhall119, besides testing and bug reports - I'd like to see folk using the new Snappy tools and starting to get a good catalogue of apps going 17:12 touch devices are rare now, but will become more widespread with win8 / win10 17:12 has there been any discussion of installing snappy apps on a deb system? 17:13 some, but not loads yet. We need to sort out the confinement story, and X org makes that hard. 17:14 We could get a container working for that though I expect 17:15 willcooke: so far all of our snappy packaging docs have been around cloud/IoT apps, what do we have for packaging apps written with the Ubuntu SDK, and is it ready to publish on developer.u.c? 17:16 mhall119, didrocks is working on that this cycle. If he hasn't already contacted you about it, he will be soon 17:16 perfect, thanks 17:16 nice :-) 17:16 He was at the SDK sprint this week, so he's full of good ideas :) 17:17 cool, we should have a chat next week :) 17:17 willcooke: do you have a short list of apps targeted for default inclusion in snappy desktop? I know we brainstormed a big list in London 17:17 At the moment it looks like: 17:18 and is that something community folks can get involved in helping with now, or are there things blocking that work currently? 17:18 Gedit, Chromium, Libreoffice, Gimp, xchat 17:18 plus all the default apps from the phone 17:18 for the first release they will be part of the image 17:18 but we want to start moving them out in to snaps asap 17:19 good timing that the core apps folks are working on convergence features now :-) 17:19 so once the docs are there, and Xmir is in the archive for legacy apps - have at it 17:19 dholbach: almost like it was planned that way :) 17:19 dholbach, how about that! It's almost like we planned it ;) 17:19 ha 17:19 :) 17:20 right, switching gears a bit and going back to Unity 7, I saw that Wily has started syncing with Debian and getting the new Gnome stuff, what's the workload expected there and how can people help? 17:20 oh, @ default apps - plus the SDK of course 17:20 mhall119, good question, so... 17:21 we are working on ways to reduce our maintenance overhead every time we sync with upstream Gnome 17:21 because it is a fair whack of work 17:21 I saw a couple of folks helping out with merges and uploads of new versions from gnome 17:22 yeah, we've got a some really excellent help there, especially from the Ubuntu Gnome team 17:22 which version of gnome are we going to use this cycle? are we still blocked where some gnome modules can't be updated? 17:22 I was just going to ask if they were able to help 17:22 how about the MATE team? 17:22 dholbach, 3.16 17:22 dont think we're blocked, seb128? 17:23 we are not 17:23 always good news to hear 17:23 one thing which came up in the past was how things worked with other flavours such as xubuntu and ubuntu gnome - are you aware of any current blockers for them? 17:23 mhall119, @ MATE, I think they are using a much earlier version 17:23 dholbach, no, I don't think so 17:23 Shouldnt be any blockers for xubuntu 17:24 we just updated gtk to 3.16 today 17:24 pleia2: ^^ 17:24 and we're working closely with U.Gnome 17:24 cool... I'm happy that this is largely untangled <3 17:24 so should be smoothish sailing there 17:24 plus we've been doing this for a while now, so the guys have got a good process in place 17:25 is there anything where the desktop team could need some help with? 17:25 how are we doing w.r.t. collaboration and coordination around Qt needs for KDE and U8? 17:25 pitchforks and torches aside :) 17:26 * sabdfl updates to gtk 3.16... 17:26 Qt coordination has been good so far, everybody benefits from getting newer versions and understands that we need to do proper testing and ensure there are no regressions before updating 17:26 so there are been not many frictions so far 17:26 mhall119: I don't know about any of that 17:27 dholbach, there might be some interesting work to do with us on the Gtk Mir backend and the Chromium Mir backend 17:27 ok 17:27 we're working on it, but it's a big and interesting problem to solve 17:27 glad to hear that 17:27 seb128: I recall Kubuntu doing a lot of work to get Qt packages building and CI processes in place for Debian, are we taking advantage of that? 17:27 seb128, do you know if the KDE folks also have some regression tests in the archive? 17:28 mhall119, the more testing is done the better 17:28 so yeah, them doing extra CI/testing is welcome and useful 17:28 dholbach, unsure how much they have 17:28 ok 17:29 Mirv would probably know 17:29 seb128: I mean are we running the same tests after we import to our archives? 17:29 I guess so 17:29 and contributing fixes or additional tests back to the debian setup 17:29 mhall119, autopkg tests shipped with the package yes 17:31 alright, we're halfway through our hour, are there any other questions for the Desktop team? 17:31 I'm enjoying the new weekly meeting summary emails :) 17:31 so thanks for doing those now 17:31 I think I'm done - thanks a lot Desktop Team! :-) 17:31 thanks! 17:31 yes, thank you desktop team. 17:31 yes, it's great to see those on the mailing lists 17:32 pleia2, welcome, and I'll cc the news team too 17:32 willcooke: appreciated 17:32 #topic Catch up with the Developer Membership Board 17:32 o/ 17:32 06:01:30 < xnox> pleia2: heya, i will not be able to make a catchup. 17:32 06:02:40 < xnox> pleia2: w.r.t. to current developers there are no active developers that i know off, that have upload rights, yet would somehow fail dmb (... or at least fail to get +1 from) requirements for their upload rights. 17:32 06:03:04 < xnox> pleia2: there has been little applications lately, but i guess it's because we were frozen. 17:32 ^^ got that earlier 17:33 o/ 17:33 bdmurray: Laney micahg ScottK stgraber anyone here for the CC catchup? 17:33 hey micahg 17:33 hey hey 17:33 hi mhall119 17:33 how are yo all doing? 17:34 yep, I'm here too 17:34 dholbach: doing alright! 17:34 cyphermox: ah,sorry, I knew I forgot someone 17:34 no worries. 17:35 so how many developer applications have you had over the last cycle? 17:35 rough estimate is fine 17:35 not too many 17:35 oh my. micahg, do you know of a number? there weren't any since I got on the DMB 17:35 less than a dozen I think 17:35 probably much less... 17:36 micahg: and what areas of the project have those been coming from? 17:36 well, Xubuntu has had some interest 17:37 oh, hrm, that might have been before this last cycle 17:37 still good to know :) 17:37 I could imagine that people in smaller communities have a bit more of encouraging each other to apply for upload rights. 17:38 To some I guess it's still somewhat daunting... or just don't think of applying and always ask for sponsorship of their uploads. 17:38 a little interest from cloud team and one for Firefox as well apparently... 17:38 micahg: how about from Ubuntu Gnome or MATE flavors? 17:38 Ubuntu GNOME has at least one uploader from several cycles back, no one from MATE has applied yet 17:39 is anyone asking people who frequently ask for and get sponsorships to apply? 17:39 dholbach: do we have any metrics that will show which people we should reach out to? 17:40 the developer advisory team unfortunately had to close down because everyone was busy with other things 17:40 I've recommended Martin Wimpress to apply from the MATE team, since I've sponsored a few uploads for him 17:40 cyphermox: what was his reaction to that? 17:41 but maybe we could generally just ask on the mailing list and see who feels like they got a lot sponsored and have a (maybe private?) chat with them... 17:41 as I recall (it was before christmas), he was interested but wanted to wait to get the flavor built with official isos, I should reach out again and possibly mentor 17:41 that's a fair idea 17:42 cyphermox, I'll note it down as something we could maybe plan together :) 17:42 sure 17:42 excellent :) 17:42 dholbach: thanks for taking that work item 17:43 I'm not quite sure... was the question about quorum/voting process sufficiently cleared? 17:43 cyphermox: any other plans for this next cycle to try and boost the number of applicants? 17:44 it coming up surprised me a bit since I couldn't remember any cases of governance boards running into the issue 17:44 not sure if that's the right meeting to raise that, but the DMB hasn't reviewed Bjoern's application for libreoffice despite several requests/emails to review that again, it's blocked for over a year and not sure what's the way out 17:45 the DMB has always had a different standard for votes, most probably due to the seriousness and impact of rights being granted 17:46 could seb128's request be added to the DMB's agenda again? 17:46 boosting the number of applicants> it's not exactly something we've discussed so much, aside from how recent changes in the project may have affected people's motivation to apply. for instance, when you can get things in through the CI train, you don't think as much of applying to get upload rights 17:46 micahg, you had a different voting process for different kinds of upload rights? 17:46 seb128: IIRC, he was rejected and hasn't officially re-applied, at least that was the conclusion at our last catchup 17:46 seb128: has he officially re-applied? 17:46 mhall119, define "officially" 17:47 we emailed the DMB asking for application to be re-reviewed 17:47 the email got ignored 17:47 dholbach: no, the standard was +4 instead of just a simple majority with quorum present 17:47 seb128: whatever the DMB's process is for applications 17:47 seb128: the process is that he should reapply 17:47 seb128: I haven't seen a new application from Bjoern since I've been on the DMB, he probably should send an email to the board? 17:47 micahg, ok, then I misunderstood 17:47 that's the easiest way for it to be reconsidered 17:47 micahg, he's not interested to re-apply due to the way he was treated last time 17:47 ah :( 17:47 so I sent an email asking for his application to be re-reviewed 17:47 would have been nice to consider it/respond 17:47 seb128: so what would you like the DMB to do? 17:48 could the DMB still go and check the current state of things for his application and move on? 17:48 and give him a headsup? 17:48 mhall119, re-review his applications without asking him to do whoknowswhatisneeded 17:48 as an act of courtesy and in the interest of moving on? 17:49 seb128: I'm unclear what you're asking, and perhaps the DMB is too, areyou asking them to review his application as if he has re-applied? Or just give feedback to him on it so that he can decide to reapply or not? 17:49 mhall119, last time nobody told him clearly what needed to be worked on 17:49 or changed 17:49 so we asked for clarification/re-review his application 17:49 not sure why we just can't get those details 17:49 ok, so he needs feedback so he can fix his application before re-applying, is that the case? 17:49 yes 17:50 he's not wanting to re-apply without being told what was the issue/wrong with the previous application 17:50 seb128: I'll happily look over his application and work it out with him 17:50 micahg: cyphermox: can you guys try and get that feedback to bjorn in the next week or so? 17:50 cyphermox, thanks 17:50 thanks cyphermox 17:50 thanks a lot... I'm superhappy if we can figure this out 17:50 ah, I'll try to get that done today or tomorrow, otherwise I'm on vacation for two weeks 17:51 thanks cyphermox 17:51 cyphermox, enjoy the vac ;-) 17:51 seb128: if this is still blocked in a month, please let us know so we can followup on it, we don't want this to wait for the next round of catchups 17:51 yes, have a good time 17:51 mhall119, k 17:51 is there anything you feel the CC could help the DMB with? 17:53 sounds like not :) 17:53 well, there's one issue we wanted to bring up, with the recent brouhaha with the CC and the KC, it's resulted in at least one developer no longer working on new releases (http://scarlettgatelyclark.com/2015/kubuntu-statement-from-a-not-so-important-kubuntu-developer), who happened to have been the most active uploader for vivid (http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~stefanor/ubuntu-activity/) 17:54 developer motivation seems to be an issue 17:54 micahg, we are working with the KC on resolving this 17:54 micahg: yes, we were all very sad to see that happen, we are trying to work on mending the relationship with the KC and moving forward 17:55 the MOTU channel is hardly active anymore, it seems most of the development focus is in the flavors 17:55 micahg, that's true - but I think the decline happened much earlier than the recent developments 17:56 yes, but we do need people to look after $everything_else 17:56 dholbach: indeed, it's been happening for a while now 17:56 but I'd figure I'd highlight the recent big blow 17:56 for example: we didn't have anyone organising another "learn packaging" event or somebody who said "let's fix some bugs together - here's a list of stuff" 17:56 micahg: understood, thanks for bring that up 17:57 and I think it's understandable if people work on flavours 17:57 micahg: cyphermox: other than mending fences, do you have any recommendations or ideas for boosting motivation? 17:57 where the focus is smaller and the set of problems to work on is much more targetted 17:57 I think that might be a contributing factor as well 17:58 yes, but it also has the unfortunate side effect of siloing things sometiems 17:58 that might not be a bad thing, of some people focus on their silo, as long as there is another (smaller) group working across those silos 17:58 mhall119: well, I know that dholbach used to do a lot of activities to help spurn developer interest back in the day, I'm not sure anyones is doing that anymore 17:58 micahg: do you think some of the steam has to do with the recent focus on clound and touch? 17:59 micahg: I hope you meant spur :) 17:59 pleia2: yes, spur 17:59 pleia2: he's *very* persuasive :) 17:59 hehe 17:59 micahg: can the DMB pick up some of those activities? 18:00 or give it to one specific person in the DMB 18:00 maybe cycling it through each month? 18:00 and/or we could bring it up on the mailing list and see who would be willing to organise a small thing soon 18:00 it's something to discuss, we can add it to the agenda 18:00 I know that's not really in the DMB's mandate, but if it helps motivate people it's certainly something within your wheelhouse 18:01 well, another problem is that the word developer in Ubuntu is overloaded, see http://developer.ubuntu.com/en/ 18:01 indeed, it is confusing 18:01 micahg: yeah, this is true 18:02 what are our options for clearing that up? 18:02 there's nothing there's nothing really on that side about the archive I believe which is the purview of the DMB 18:02 wow, :9 18:02 ugh 18:02 I think on the pages where we introduce people to our community, we do a passable job of explaining that developing can be everything including writing an app or integrating a patch or working on CI infrastructure or anything else 18:02 and if not, we should fix it :) 18:03 is there a similar site for distro-development? 18:03 packaging.ubuntu.com 18:04 it's for documentation about ubuntu development 18:04 and they're both linked from community.ubuntu.com 18:04 maybe we can all (later on) have a look at the pages in question and see if we explain the different routes of development well enough 18:05 sounds good 18:05 dholbach: we can maybe put something up under https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/community/ as well 18:05 that way it would turn up in searches on developer.u.c too 18:05 ah yes 18:05 I'll file a bug 18:05 dholbach: can you and I work together on that? 18:06 sure 18:06 bug 1462049 :) 18:07 bug 1462049 in Ubuntu Developer Portal "Add a "maybe you're looking for" section" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1462049 18:07 alright, we're over time, any other questions for or from the DMB? 18:07 I think I'm done 18:07 I think that's it, thanks 18:07 excellent - thanks a lot everyone! 18:07 thanks DMB - I turned up late but managed to catch up a short while ago :) 18:08 oh, one last thing, do we still do Developer Week online classes? 18:08 thanks! 18:08 mhall119: I think we should 18:08 I don't think we did ubuntu app developer week or developer week in a while 18:08 we could have added a couple of classes to the last UOS 18:08 cyphermox: it would need some folks to step up and organize it 18:09 but as I recall seeing developer week got kind of merged in open week or whatever it was called last time 18:09 especially once git fully lands on LP, it'll be good to have a session about the workflow and everything 18:09 cyphermox: right, and I think we tried to run it like UOS 18:09 possibly 18:10 let's chat about it when we're going to talk about the other idea :) 18:10 it's one more thing that needs reaching out on -devel@ perhaps, and see who's interested. 18:10 yes 18:10 sure 18:10 cool, if we can get volunteers we can make that happen again 18:11 alright, thanks micahg and cyphermox 18:11 yes, thanks a bunch! 18:11 #topic Any other business 18:11 we're already over-time, but is there any other topic anybody wanted to bring up? 18:11 * mhall119 hopes no other team is waiting on this channel 18:12 nothing on the agenda page at least 18:13 alright, thanks everyone! 18:13 all right my friends - I'll start into the evening activities! have a good one! 18:13 #endmeeting Generated by MeetBot 0.1.5 (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology)