== Meeting information == * #ubuntu-meeting Meeting, 20 Nov at 17:02 — 17:59 UTC * Full logs at [[http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-20-17.02.log.html]] == Meeting summary == === Catching up with the Desktop team === The discussion about "Catching up with the Desktop team" started at 17:02. === Catching up with the DMB === The discussion about "Catching up with the DMB" started at 17:29. * ''LINK:'' https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2014-November/thread.html === Any other business? === The discussion about "Any other business?" started at 17:49. * ''ACTION:'' elfy contact boards and reschedule 4 Dec meeting * ''ACTION:'' CC to have a meeting on 4Th December to discuss latest threads on Ubuntu Governance == Vote results == == Action items, by person == * elfy * elfy contact boards and reschedule 4 Dec meeting == Done items == * (none) == People present (lines said) == * didrocks (70) * mhall119 (58) * dholbach (51) * Laney (50) * czajkowski (46) * YokoZar (20) * elfy (11) * meetingology (7) * cprofitt (5) * pleia2 (4) * xnox (3) * ubottu (1) * bdmurray (1) == Full Log == 17:02 #startmeeting 17:02 Meeting started Thu Nov 20 17:02:10 2014 UTC. The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 17:02 17:02 Available commands: action commands idea info link nick 17:02 goooooo team 17:02 Laney: \o/ 17:02 o/ 17:02 #chair cprofitt czajkowski mhall119 YokoZar pleia2 17:02 Current chairs: YokoZar cprofitt czajkowski dholbach mhall119 pleia2 17:02 #topic Catching up with the Desktop team 17:02 easily forgotten is elfy :( 17:03 didrocks, Laney: thanks for turning up! how are you doing? how's the desktop? 17:03 #chair elfy 17:03 Current chairs: YokoZar cprofitt czajkowski dholbach elfy mhall119 pleia2 17:03 Welcome 17:03 Aloha :) 17:03 dholbach: we're good! Wrapping up blueprints after UOS 17:03 got quite some nice sessions, especially the Q&A with the community 17:04 what kept you guys busy in the last time? 17:04 dholbach: I wasn't there the last time, so not sure when it was exactly, like a month or so? 17:04 hum? I'm not sure I understand - you mean when the CC met with the Desktop team the last time? 17:05 it could easily have been 5-6 months since we last met(?) - I can't quite remember 17:05 dholbach: right, I was on holidays I guess, so unsure when it was (don't want to go back in time too far) 17:05 ah ok :) 17:05 right :) 17:05 Phone system settings, bugs, 14.10 release, GTK Mir backend, ... 17:05 More recently gnome updates + merges too, normal stuff I think 17:05 Some work on the unity 8 desktop stuff 17:06 yeah, part of the team is working on getting some bits of gnome 3.14 updated 17:06 UDTC ;-) 17:06 (and gtk with their new theme system) 17:06 how is the unity8 desktop coming on? 17:06 of course, desktop developer story as Laney told :) 17:06 will the new gtk mean that we can update to the newest in gnome? 17:06 Laney: I know there's been work to more cleanly separate upstream Gnome from Unity's needs, so that Ubuntu GNOME for example doesn't have conflicts. How has that work been going, is it completed or almost there? 17:06 unity8: it's coming up nicely, if you saw recent posts, there is even some prototypes for multi-windows management with unity8 17:07 I saw that :) 17:07 we have a blueprint and some WIs for that image: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-1504-desktop-apps-on-mir 17:07 was that from this UOS? 17:07 the goal is to have all those apps running and working in the unity8 image by 15.04 17:07 we didn't really have a session at UOS as it's a JFDI 17:07 an ambitious goal 17:08 In the past there was a bit of a thorny issue where our derived-from-gnome packages were still using the gnome-* package namespace (and you couldn't easily get a more gnomey-gnome from packages), leading to some upset community folks. Has this migration been basically completely done now? 17:08 but basically we want people to be able to create touch apps and tests from this image 17:08 hence Qtcreator 17:08 mhall119 basically beat me to that question 17:08 and having importants apps 17:08 YokoZar: type smaller bits :) 17:08 so GNOME - Unity separation 17:08 I doubts there will be more work on this until we switch to unity8 by default and dropp unity7 support 17:09 there has been a fair share of decoupling 17:09 to enable the ubuntu gnome team to update more on latest gnome version 17:09 Is Unity8 happening next release? 17:09 We'll be able to get to 3.14 I think 17:09 YokoZar: we all wish, but a more realistic goal is by next LTS 17:09 YokoZar: not default next release, no 17:09 we will propose it as an option first anyway 17:10 and then, when users will be convinced that unity 8 is better than unity 7 17:10 we will switch 17:10 didrocks: is the plan to keep Unity NEXT as a separate build, or will Unity 8 be an installable session on top of a regular install? 17:10 in 15.04 17:10 as Laney told, we are going to get Gnome 3.14 this cycle 17:10 which is the current Gnome stable release 17:10 mhall119: it's already available in a session on top of the regular one actually 17:10 current, but usn't 3.16 coming soon? 17:10 the separate build is just for people to try it more easily 17:11 mhall119: soon being next April 17:11 didrocks: We do have 15.10 before 16.04 LTS as well. Is that the time to drop unity7 so we can fully deal with this? I'd hate to leave ubuntu-gnome stranded for another LTS 17:11 didrocks: good to know, thanks 17:11 didrocks: so, same as our next release :) 17:11 Who says they are stranded? 17:11 mhall119: right :) 17:11 Well, alternative is package separation work of course 17:11 It would be extremely bad to fork every gnome package 17:12 No argument there 17:12 do we have many gnome-* packages left that have Unity-specific changes which break GNOME? 17:12 YokoZar: I agree I would not like to see Ubuntu Gnome left is a bad position through another LTS 17:12 they can do it, but it's a fair amount of work 17:12 mhall119: well, there is gtk for example, what prevented update to 3.14 last cycle is that they rewrote the theme engine for example 17:13 so the ubuntu theme is being redone identical with the new css rules as of now 17:13 I'm just worried about a situation where the not-gnome gnome-* packages linger because it was easier to remove them after dropping unity-7 but then we never get around to dropping unity-7 till release after LTS and so the separation work doesn't get done 17:13 so, it's not only "unity", it's "ubuntu" as a whole 17:13 didrocks: so is it more a case of "newest upstream breaks Unity" and now "Unity patches break newest upstream"? 17:13 ok 17:13 mhall119: exactly 17:13 s/now/not/ I infer :) 17:14 yes 17:14 how are things going with the developer desktop? :) 17:15 so that answers my questions and concerns about that, how about you YokoZar? 17:15 we are starting to get a nice community and external contributors 17:15 didrocks: I suspect adapting the Ubuntu theme to work with latest Gnome is work the ubuntu-gnome folks are happy to do, whereas poking around with unity-specific patches maybe less so ;) 17:15 YokoZar: hum, I doubt, they are using the upstream adwaita theme, not the ubuntu one 17:15 YokoZar: so, they are not really concerned about it 17:15 ahh ok 17:16 It's more things like adapting UIs where Unity wants them to be different from the GNOME HIG which is in the way of updating 17:16 yeah, so this cycle, we should have new ides supported for developers 17:16 "ubuntu one" == "humanity" right? 17:16 new environments as well 17:16 Not really so much distro patches 17:16 IMO 17:16 and not protection for people using pip/ruby on their systems :) 17:16 mhall119: well, we don't have headbars in our theme 17:16 and some applications have empty menus with headbars 17:17 I have this fantasy of Ubuntu being in Gnome's good graces again 17:17 mhall119: I'm happy, though we should check in next release. 17:17 so, it's broken in xfce, under unity… 17:17 (I kid ~ "good graces") 17:17 YokoZar: +1 17:17 bleh 17:17 It's like the fantasy of an "Ubuntu and Debian" relationship 17:17 I would like to see that too YokoZar 17:17 really it's many to many 17:17 Exactly 17:17 +1 Laney 17:17 There is no Emperor of Gnome whose ring we can kiss :p 17:19 lol 17:19 is there anythign the CC can to do assign the desktop team's work, either with Unity 8 or the Ubuntu<->GNOME relation? 17:19 dholbach: so, if you can read in the interleaved discussions, yeah, things are going great on the developer desktop :) 17:19 s/assign/assist/ 17:19 * mhall119 can't type today 17:20 (which is bad, because I'm coding today) 17:20 mhall119: maybe some call for testing/trying the Unity 8 image? 17:20 we know it can't be used on a daily bases 17:20 and it's a tablet ui for now 17:20 but we will be thrilled to have feedback, like on social media for instance 17:20 didrocks: we can help promote that if there's a coordinated plan to help people get started and report problems 17:20 I saw mzanetti posted a video of some windowing support on G+ 17:20 and I think the core apps guys will be delighted to have early feedbacks on their applications running on a desktop :) 17:20 didrocks: not a tablet UI for long, once mzanetti's patch lands 17:21 right! 17:21 very nice 17:21 mhall119: we can build some plan around it and use the community team as a proxy? 17:21 didrocks: community team and CC both can assist with getting the word out 17:21 to spread the world with the loco council :) 17:22 nice 17:22 didrocks: good idea 17:22 * mhall119 apologizes to everyone he just volunteered to do stuff 17:22 I'm the LoCo council will like that 17:22 volounteering other people, that's always the way to go ;) 17:23 it's the Ubuntu way ;) 17:24 speaking of help - where do you feel the Desktop team would need most help right now? 17:24 if we can get some people will to contribute testing and updating the new GNOME in particular on #ubuntu-desktop, that would be awesome 17:24 who* 17:24 want* 17:25 ECANTTYPE tonight as well :) 17:25 didrocks: we just need some specifics about what to test, how to test it, and how to report results 17:25 I'm always personnaly welcoming feedback and patches on UDTC (the developer desktop) 17:25 we will make some call for help and contribution publically on this next week 17:25 a vague "test some things" isn't going to get us very far 17:25 * elfy suggests that balloons would be the one to co-ordinate testing 17:25 mhall119: most of the coordination is done through #ubuntu-desktop 17:26 didrocks: better to gave documentation, if we can get it 17:26 so people jumping on IRC and telling they want to help, we can then redirect to what is needed at that point in time 17:26 you're only on IRC 22.5 hours a day, afterall 17:26 the thing is that between one week to the next one, it's not the same thing to test 17:26 also, we resumed using WI and blueprints 17:27 so, if people wants to help the desktop team, there is http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/canonical-desktop-team.html 17:27 I understand, but docs still work better and get more contributors, so if we can have them that would be great 17:27 here are some WI that are not assigned 17:27 they are free to grab and more specific 17:28 great... I'm done with questions - does anyone else have any more questions? 17:28 * mhall119 has none 17:28 I have no more. 17:29 thanks a lot didrocks and Laney! 17:29 thank you both 17:29 thanks didrocks Laney 17:29 . 17:29 thanks everyone! :) 17:29 #topic Catching up with the DMB 17:29 yes, thank you everyone. 17:29 thanks, hi 17:29 welcome again Laney :) 17:30 anyone else from the DMB around? :) 17:30 dunno, to find out you do this: 17:30 !dmb-ping 17:30 bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping 17:30 Laney: hola 17:30 dholbach: hi 17:30 tada! 17:31 hello xnox, nice to see you're still around :) 17:31 wow, I didn't know that command :) 17:31 mhall119: i beg your pardon, how dare you?! =) nah, all is cool. 17:31 :) 17:31 hi 17:32 how are you? how are things with the DMB? 17:33 Same ol' 17:33 Heh 17:33 We have meetings, we approve most people, impossible to get people to reply to email threads 17:33 :P 17:33 ah yes, I remember we talked about the mail situation the last time 17:34 Laney: applicants or DMB members? 17:34 do you feel things have improved there? 17:34 Is our rate of developer growth about the same as it's always been? 17:34 members, no 17:34 or is it also "same ol'"? 17:34 It's pretty slow now 17:34 CI train removed one reason people used to have for applying I think 17:35 but the new system won't be as backdoory so we may see it come back a bit 17:35 ("CI airline") 17:35 I estimate we have someone at 3 out of every 4 meetings 17:36 do you know if people who get their changes auto-landed apply for membership very often? 17:36 I know that they don't do that through us 17:37 at least I can't think of anyone like that 17:37 ok 17:38 DMB has never been a popular route for membership anyway 17:38 how about the voting-by-email situation? does this go better than it used to? 17:38 No 17:39 We have three threads ongoing now, hard to get the board to reply 17:39 :/ 17:39 I think we might have to start refusing to handle any application on email 17:39 maybe somebody should use the "dmb-ping" command on IRC more often :-) 17:39 but our meeting times are crap for people not in the US or Europe 17:39 right, that makes sense 17:39 The two email applicants are in Asia and Australasia 17:40 so. 17:40 Laney: could you review applicants in the meeting online and post them results or do you need the applicants there in person ? 17:40 It's the interview aspect 17:40 but the meeting time slot could be used for that, no? 17:40 or else make a once off special meeting when -meeting is free and everyone comes online early/late and reviews the applicatns ? 17:40 Only if the applicant is there 17:40 not saying it's needed every month but may deal with people not answering emails :) 17:41 but you could use the meeting time for sending the mail 17:41 you'd think 17:41 dholbach: +! 17:41 writing the mail 17:41 that should really be possible 17:41 :) 17:41 https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2014-November/thread.html 17:41 Might not be talking to the right person. :) 17:42 I wasn't blaming you in the slightest 17:42 I know, I'm just saying that I don't know what solutions I can offer 17:42 right 17:43 Laney: perhaps try dholbach suggestio of mail during meeting and add it to the agenda and see if that helps? 17:43 Laney: do you usually have enough board members on hand at a meeting ? 17:43 Could try that 17:43 here's 10 minutes of silence, go email 17:44 yes, that'd be nice 17:44 We usually scrape 4 people 17:44 Laney: so do you think you need more members on the board also ? 17:44 Laney: try adn see and let us know :) 17:44 please 17:44 or regional boards like we did for Ubuntu membership? 17:45 not sure that would help the DMB given some areas are higher than others for developers 17:45 true, but there might be enough current members for a asian/oceana board 17:45 I know that it's not easy to make up your mind and that with the MC we had long email debates as well 17:46 but it's nice if everyone tries hard to keep the ball rolling 17:46 Reasonable 17:46 and not keep the applicants waiting unnecesarily 17:46 I know that everyone understands this 17:47 Still somehow it never gets to the top 17:47 thanks a lot for your help, Laney 17:48 thanks Laney, hopefull the "send email during meeting time" will help 17:48 Thank you Laney 17:48 does anyone have any other questions? 17:48 not me 17:48 I want to discuss/inform about you about something in private 17:48 do you have a channel? 17:49 Laney: yes let me dm 17:49 all rightie... anything else? 17:49 #topic Any other business? 17:50 I think we should at some point 17:50 address the issues being brought up on community list 17:50 should we have a dediated meeting to it ? 17:50 which one(s)? 17:51 mhall119: the long threads going on right now re governance 17:51 czajkowski: I'd say yes 17:51 I responded O:-) 17:51 ah, those, I'm not sure the discussions have progressed to the point where we can make any decisions yet, so a dedicated meeting in the near future might be best 17:51 yeah, might be a good idea 17:52 maybe let's give the discussion another week? 17:52 mhall119: well I think people need to understand it's also ok to bring these discussions to us 17:52 Agreed ~tabling, I gotta go soon 17:52 czajkowski: yep 17:52 blog posts and mailing lsits arent always the best way to engage 17:52 czajkowski: we (the CC) can also join hte discussion in the ML 17:52 and many of the comments from people are leaving people alienated 17:52 which isn;t good 17:52 mhall119: some have already 17:52 mhall119: but this is also a forum for discussion! 17:53 I know, I just wanted to restate that 17:53 ok I propose we have an irc meeting next week 17:53 instead of our weekly G+ 17:53 same bat time, same bat channel? 17:53 and that way the community can take part and also it's logged so people read it 17:53 yes 17:53 and we post it to the fridge 17:53 oh wait, that's Thanksgiving day in the USA 17:53 we just need to announce it 17:53 so people can see and also know the date/time 17:53 :/ 17:54 ok so December 4th ?as a large chunk of the CC are USA 17:54 do we have catch-ups scheduled for the 4th already? 17:54 yes 17:54 (all right... I need to rush now - but you should all be irc meeting chairs, so you can end the meeting as well) 17:54 see you! 17:54 mhall119: possibly but I think this topic is worth rescheduling don't you ? 17:54 thanks dholbach 17:55 edubuntu and lubuntu 17:55 czajkowski: that's fine, I'm also okay to have this discussion +/- 1 hour from that meeting 17:55 but I know that might not work for others 17:55 mhall119: much alter in EU then 17:55 :) 17:55 timezones eh 17:55 :) 17:55 we should get rid of those 17:55 elfy: can you contact and ask them to reschedule please? 17:55 * mhall119 adds that to the CC agenda 17:56 and then we can use the dec 4th meeting to discuss issues 17:56 czajkowski: well I can mail them - I never get replies from the majority of people 17:56 lets also see if we can get sabdfl to the meeting also 17:57 czajkowski: we'll be doing this on IRC right, not a hangout? 17:57 fwiw, thanksgiving I am around 17:57 mhall119: aye 17:57 ok 17:57 pleia2: you shouldn't be :-P 17:58 I get caught up on my ubuntu work during work holidays :) 17:58 it's just MJ and me, not really a big holiday for us 17:58 more turkey to go around then 17:58 right AOB folks ? 17:58 not from me 17:59 #action elfy contact boards and reschedule 4 Dec meeting 17:59 * meetingology elfy contact boards and reschedule 4 Dec meeting 17:59 none from me 17:59 #action CC to have a meeting on 4Th December to discuss latest threads on Ubuntu Governance 17:59 * meetingology CC to have a meeting on 4Th December to discuss latest threads on Ubuntu Governance 17:59 thanks czajkowski 17:59 #endmeeting Generated by MeetBot 0.1.5 (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology)