19:09 <tumbleweed> #startmeeting Developer Membership Board
19:09 <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 27 19:09:23 2014 UTC.  The chair is tumbleweed. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
19:09 <meetingology> 
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19:09 <tumbleweed> #topic Review of previous action items
19:09 <tumbleweed> #subtopic micahg to restructure PPU teams.
19:09 <tumbleweed> can we call that all done?
19:09 <micahg> ok, so teams restructured, still need to clean up docs
19:10 <tumbleweed> ok, I'll modify that item appropriately
19:10 <tumbleweed> sigh, we have 3 applications listed as jan 27
19:11 <tumbleweed> but Noskcaj is happening by e-mail
19:11 <tumbleweed> so
19:11 <tumbleweed> oh, not 3
19:12 <micahg> I only see 2 people
19:12 <tumbleweed> #topic darkxst's MOTU & Ubuntu Gnome applications
19:12 <tumbleweed> we might as well discuss them together
19:12 <tumbleweed> and then vote on them separately
19:12 <tumbleweed> darkxst: care to introduce your application?
19:12 * tumbleweed grabs a beer
19:12 <darkxst> hi, I am the technical lead and main developer for Ubuntu GNOME
19:13 <darkxst> I have been involved with ubuntu GNOME since the start, so trusty will be our 3rd official release now
19:14 <darkxst> I mostly work on the GNOME stack, and also work closely with the desktop team, since there is quite some overlap there
19:17 <tumbleweed> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimLunn/PPUApplication
19:17 <tumbleweed> sorry, been reading
19:21 <tumbleweed> so, obviously the best starting point for questions are everything that you and your endorsers consider to be problem areas
19:21 <tumbleweed> you mention wanting to push more to Debian
19:21 <tumbleweed> how involved are you with the Debian GNOME team?
19:22 <darkxst> right now not really involved at all, they do however pick up much of our work from the gnome3 PPA's though
19:23 <tumbleweed> so, I'm not intimiately familiar with ubuntu gnome
19:23 <tumbleweed> you prepare things in a PPA, and upload them to the release when ready?
19:24 <darkxst> yes, we have the gnome3-team PPA's where we stage things
19:24 <tumbleweed> is the PPA still enabled in release images?
19:24 <darkxst> typically packages will bake there for a cycle
19:25 <darkxst> no the PPA is not in the release at all
19:25 <tumbleweed> ah, that's quite a while
19:25 <tumbleweed> great, I remember it was i nthe early days. But I'm not paying enough attention any more
19:25 <darkxst> since ubuntu is a cycle behind GNOME
19:25 <micahg> PPAs on release images is a no-no...
19:25 <tumbleweed> well, yes
19:27 <tumbleweed> how much friction is there between the gnome and Unity communities in ubuntu, these days?
19:27 <tumbleweed> Laney's endorsement points out both things that went well, and badly, when updating the gnome stack
19:28 <darkxst> the ubuntu devs tend to get annoyed at the changes GNOME make
19:28 <darkxst> and GNOME can be a little inconsiderate when it comes to backwards compatibility
19:28 <tumbleweed> yeah
19:28 <darkxst> but generally upstream GNOME have been helpful in fixing ubuntu integration issues
19:29 <tumbleweed> that's good to hear
19:29 <tumbleweed> darkxst: lots of the endorsers talked about joining the ubuntu-desktop team
19:30 <tumbleweed> is that something you'd want to do in the future?
19:31 <darkxst> potentially, although I have wondered if the whole convergence thing would limit my usefulness there
19:31 <tumbleweed> yeah, I get the feeling that ubuntu-desktop is becoming more of the "GNOME bits of the desktop"
19:31 <tumbleweed> darkxst: have you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce?
19:32 <darkxst> tumbleweed, yes
19:32 <tumbleweed> \o/
19:33 <darkxst> Mir/Unity8 wont leave much GNOME there really
19:33 <darkxst> although I suppose the core bits aren't going anywhere (glib, g-i, gtk etc)
19:33 <micahg> darkxst: so, you talk about patch quality in what you don't like about Ubuntu, do you have any ideas on improvement?
19:35 <darkxst> certainly have hit bugs in quite a few ubuntu patches, that possibly would have been avoided by a proper code review
19:35 <micahg> is this a problem with sponsors not reviewing patches or are we referring more to something only an upstream would catch?
19:35 <darkxst> not sure how to improve it though, sponsorship can already be quite slow
19:36 <darkxst> yes, I suspect its largely sponsors not reviewing patches properly
19:37 <tumbleweed> I assume there's also a component of "let's fix this issue with a quick hack"
19:37 <darkxst> not sure how to improve it though, sponsorship already takes long enough generally
19:38 <darkxst> indeed, there would be plenty of patches like that
19:39 <tumbleweed> what would you do as a sponsor, to reduce this problem?
19:39 <micahg> well, sponsors should be aware of what they should and should not be uploading, if that's not happening, please either reply to the upload message to ubuntu-devel and start a discussion, or if you don't feel appropriate doing that, you can send a mail to developer-memebership-board@l.u.c (or anyone for that matter can)
19:40 <micahg> well, only send to ubuntu-devel if it's more of a teachable moment
19:40 <darkxst> I would review the patches, obviously
19:40 <tumbleweed> or public shaming seems appropriate :P
19:40 <micahg> haha
19:40 <darkxst> micahg, there things tend to pop up well down the track
19:42 <micahg> yeah, also, we're only human, mistakes will happen, we can try to mitigate them with checks and balances
19:43 <tumbleweed> darkxst: so, you're applying for upload rights to a seeded packageset
19:43 <tumbleweed> what do you need to keep in mind when uploading these packages?
19:44 <darkxst> well firstly freezes will affect all seeded packages
19:45 <tumbleweed> which freezes are we talking about?
19:45 <darkxst> alpha beta freezes
19:46 <darkxst> also would make sure my uploads don't affect other users
19:47 <tumbleweed> so, what can you upload during the freeze?
19:47 <tumbleweed> and what do you not upload?
19:47 <darkxst> unseeded packages can upload
19:47 <Noskcaj> o/
19:47 <tumbleweed> and which seeded ones?
19:48 <darkxst> critical bug fixes etc
19:48 <darkxst> with release team approval
19:49 <tumbleweed> the concern here is usually anything that affects images
19:49 <tumbleweed> how do you tell what images something is on?
19:49 <darkxst> seeded-in-ubuntu
19:49 <tumbleweed> \o/
19:49 <tumbleweed> ok, let's talk about the other kinds of freezes
19:49 <tumbleweed> what's reasonable to upload after FF?
19:50 <darkxst> nothing that introduces new features, so essentially bug fixes only
19:51 <darkxst> so for stable GNOME release can upload new point release ie. 3.10.3
19:51 <tumbleweed> have you filed FFes before?
19:51 <darkxst> yes I have filed a few FFe's
19:52 <tumbleweed> one (I think last) question from me: almost all your uploads have been for GNOMEy things. So why the MOTU application?
19:53 <darkxst> there are alot of GNOMEy packages in universe that are not in Ubuntu GNOME images
19:53 <tumbleweed> pretty much what I expected
19:56 <tumbleweed> OK, time to call a vote
19:56 <darkxst> also for example when doing transitions (cogl/clutter etc), I could help out with the universe part of that
19:56 <tumbleweed> that's true
19:57 <tumbleweed> #vote Grant darkxst upload rights to the (as yet empty) Ubuntu GNOME packageset
19:57 <meetingology> Please vote on: Grant darkxst upload rights to the (as yet empty) Ubuntu GNOME packageset
19:57 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
19:57 <micahg> +1
19:57 <meetingology> +1 received from micahg
19:57 <tumbleweed> +1
19:57 <meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
19:58 <tumbleweed> We also received +1s by e-mail from stgraber, laney, and barry
19:58 <tumbleweed> #endvote
19:58 <meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant darkxst upload rights to the (as yet empty) Ubuntu GNOME packageset
19:58 <meetingology> Votes for:2 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
19:58 <meetingology> Motion carried
19:59 <tumbleweed> #vote Grant darkxst MOTU membership
19:59 <meetingology> Please vote on: Grant darkxst MOTU membership
19:59 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
20:00 <micahg> +0 I'd like to see a bit more work with a variety of packages, but good work thusfar
20:00 <meetingology> +0 I'd like to see a bit more work with a variety of packages, but good work thusfar received from micahg
20:00 <tumbleweed> +1 [ no visible experience outside GNOME-related packages, but I'm fairly confident this won't be an issue ]
20:00 <meetingology> +1 [ no visible experience outside GNOME-related packages, but I'm fairly confident this won't be an issue ] received from tumbleweed
20:00 <tumbleweed> we also received +0 from stgraber and barry, +1 from laney
20:00 <tumbleweed> #endvote
20:00 <meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant darkxst MOTU membership
20:00 <meetingology> Votes for:1 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
20:00 <meetingology> Motion carried
20:01 <tumbleweed> I'm afraid 2 +1s isn't sufficient for this motion to pass
20:01 <micahg> darkxst: do you know if Ubuntu GNOME is a superset of desktop-extra?
20:01 <micahg> or was intended to be
20:02 <tumbleweed> and if not, we should consider you for it
20:02 <tumbleweed> I think we even have enough votes to do that, now
20:02 <darkxst> I don't know, but certainly many or most ubuntu GNOME packages are in that set
20:03 <tumbleweed> micahg: shall we take the vote, as it's perfectly harmless, if it is a superset
20:03 <micahg> sure
20:03 <tumbleweed> actually
20:03 <tumbleweed> ubuntu-gnome will be a seed-driven packageset
20:03 <tumbleweed> so it surely won't be a superset
20:04 <micahg> well, they can add stuff to supported
20:04 <tumbleweed> that's true
20:04 <tumbleweed> #vote Grant darkxst upload rights to the desktop-extra packageset
20:04 <meetingology> Please vote on: Grant darkxst upload rights to the desktop-extra packageset
20:04 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
20:04 <micahg> +1
20:04 <meetingology> +1 received from micahg
20:04 <tumbleweed> +1 [ seems a no-brainer, considering the other votes ]
20:04 <meetingology> +1 [ seems a no-brainer, considering the other votes ] received from tumbleweed
20:04 <tumbleweed> we also got a +1 by e-mail from Laney and stgraber
20:04 <tumbleweed> #endvote
20:04 <meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant darkxst upload rights to the desktop-extra packageset
20:04 <meetingology> Votes for:2 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
20:04 <meetingology> Motion carried
20:04 <tumbleweed> which means that motion was passed
20:05 <tumbleweed> darkxst: congratulations :)
20:05 <tumbleweed> If you have any interest in MOTU outside of desktop-extra packages, I suggest doing some wider MOTU work to show that
20:06 <tumbleweed> we'd welcome a re-application in a few months
20:06 <tumbleweed> #topic any other business
20:06 <tumbleweed> # subtopic next meeting
20:06 <tumbleweed> chair: ScottK
20:07 <tumbleweed> date: 10 Feb, 15:00 UTC
20:07 <tumbleweed> # subtopic election time
20:07 <tumbleweed> barry, micahg, and I all expire on 12/13 Feb
20:08 <tumbleweed> I guess one of the other team members should run the election
20:08 <tumbleweed> and start it ASAP
20:08 <tumbleweed> micahg: anything else?
20:09 * Noskcaj ?
20:09 <tumbleweed> ah, yes
20:09 <darkxst> thanks
20:09 <tumbleweed> #subtopic e-mail applications
20:10 <tumbleweed> wgrants has a quorate number of votes, but hasn't seen votes from bdrung or ScottK
20:11 <tumbleweed> pocock's has one vote from Laney. bdrung, barry, micahg, ScottK, stgraber, and tumbleweed need to vote
20:12 <tumbleweed> we need to call for votes on Noskcaj's application. assuming no more questions
20:12 <tumbleweed> that's the lot
20:13 <tumbleweed> #endmeeting