== Meeting information ==
 * #ubuntu-meeting Meeting, 21 Oct at 19:01 — 20:09 UTC
 * Full logs at [[http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-21-19.01.log.html]]



== Meeting summary ==

''LINK:'' https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda 
=== Assess the Ubuntu 13.10 documentation cycle ===
The discussion about "Assess the Ubuntu 13.10 documentation cycle" started at 19:06.

 * '''What did we do well?''' (19:06)
 * '''What didn't go well?''' (19:10)
 * '''How can we improve?''' (19:13)
 * '''What should we do differently for 14.04?''' (19:18)
  * ''LINK:'' https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide 

=== Adding classroom sessions for wiki / docs ===
The discussion about "Adding classroom sessions for wiki / docs" started at 19:25.

  * ''ACTION:'' pleia2 to email list re: classroom sessions

=== Collaboration opportunities between documentation projects ===
The discussion about "Collaboration opportunities between documentation projects" started at 19:28.

  * ''ACTION:'' godbyk to propose sharing what's new collaborative docs with manual team

=== Trusty (14.04) DeskTop help series/branch now online ===
The discussion about "Trusty (14.04) DeskTop help series/branch now online" started at 19:40.

 * '''How can we start working on ubuntu-docs for 14.04?''' (19:40)
  * ''ACTION:'' pleia2 to follow up on list re: quick get involved for trusty

=== Any other business ===
The discussion about "Any other business" started at 19:45.

  * ''LINK:'' http://www.alfresco.com/ 
  * ''LINK:'' https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/Duplicate/List works



== Vote results ==




== Action items ==

 * pleia2 to email list re: classroom sessions
 * godbyk to propose sharing what's new collaborative docs with manual team
 * pleia2 to follow up on list re: quick get involved for trusty



== Action items, by person ==

 * godbyk
  * godbyk to propose sharing what's new collaborative docs with manual team
 * pleia2
  * pleia2 to email list re: classroom sessions
  * pleia2 to follow up on list re: quick get involved for trusty



== People present (lines said) ==

 * pleia2 (121)
 * eagles0513875_ (74)
 * godbyk (70)
 * bkerensa (43)
 * phillw (24)
 * dsmythies (18)
 * meetingology (7)
 * slickymaster (6)
 * pmatulis_ (3)
 * Riddell (1)
 * mhall119 (1)



== Full Log ==


 19:01 <pleia2> #startmeeting

 19:01 <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 21 19:01:06 2013 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.

 19:01 <meetingology> 

 19:01 <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired

 19:01 <bkerensa> \o/

 19:01 <pleia2> #chair dsmythies godbyk bkerensa

 19:01 <meetingology> Current chairs: bkerensa dsmythies godbyk pleia2

 19:01 <pleia2> hi everyone :)

 19:01 <pleia2> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda

 19:01 <slickymaster> hi pleia2 o/

 19:02 <pleia2> our meeing agenda

 19:02 <pleia2> who all is here for the Doc Team meeting?

 19:02 <slickymaster> o/

 19:02 * godbyk is here.

 19:02 * slickymaster slaso

 19:02 <slickymaster> also

 19:02 <pmatulis_> o/

 19:02 <bkerensa> :D

 19:02 <dsmythies> Hi, Doug S. here for meeting

 19:02 <pleia2> while we say some hellos, I also wanted to get some resources+terms squared away so we know what we're all talking about

 19:03 <phillw> o/

 19:04 <pleia2> Desktop and Server docs: These are centrally managed by the core contributors team, packaged and shipped in the ubuntu repositories and also available at help.ubuntu.com

 19:04 <phillw> sorry, just trying to sort a fail for gnome-keyring-ssh.desktop

 19:04 <pleia2> Documentation wiki: This is all the documentation managed under help.ubuntu.com/community/ - does not strictly freeze or release, maintained by anyone who has a wiki account + a handful of wiki admins

 19:04 <dsmythies> Correction: Serverguide is not packaged or shipped

 19:05 <pleia2> dsmythies: doh!

 19:05 <pleia2> dsmythies: just published on help.ubuntu.com ?

 19:05 <dsmythies> yes

 19:05 <pleia2> ok, thanks

 19:05 <pleia2> Teams wiki: This is a wiki for teams to share team details, meetings, notes, plans at wiki.ubuntu.com

 19:05 <pleia2> Ubuntu Manual: Separate team from us (though this may change some day! and there is team membership overlap) and not covered in this meeting

 19:06 <pleia2> I think that's it

 19:06 <pleia2> time to start with meeting things :)

 19:06 <pleia2> #topic Assess the Ubuntu 13.10 documentation cycle

 19:06 <pleia2> #subtopic What did we do well?

 19:06 <pleia2> any comments?

 19:07 <pleia2> I'm happy that we got the contribution docs up to date and were able to make a solid call for contributors with some steps about how they could review the docs and optionally contribute patches

 19:07 <dsmythies> We had good spelling and grammer checking by several.

 19:08 <godbyk> I think our updated 'how to contribute to the system docs' guide is helpful. I look forward to ensuring the rest of our (internal) documentation is up to date.

 19:08 <godbyk> We have had people filing bugs that are helpful.

 19:08 <bkerensa> We refreshed quite a bit of doc and got the how to contribute out the door

 19:08 <godbyk> I think we met all of our deadlines this cycle (docs/string freeze, package deadline, etc.).

 19:09 <bkerensa> I think the fact that we functioned as a team and had enough contributors to call ourselves a team versus just one person doing the work full time (jbicha) was good to see

 19:09 <godbyk> We didn't get all of the docs updated, but we tackled the majority of them.

 19:09 <pleia2> bkerensa: +1

 19:09 <godbyk> bkerensa: I definitely agree with that.

 19:09 <phillw> I was deeply heartened to see discussions on the ML. I does bode well for 14.04

 19:09 <phillw> *it*

 19:10 <pleia2> #subtopic What didn't go well?

 19:10 <godbyk> This cycle we were hampered by being so out of date to start with. We had a lot of catching up to do.

 19:10 <pleia2> I think we were still suffering from overwhelmingness early on which led to early confusion and frustration to contributors, but I'm pretty sure that was just growing pains and we're doing better now, and well set up for next cycle

 19:10 <phillw> there is still uncertaincy of what tools we use for which projects.

 19:10 <dsmythies> We did not have enough people actually using a 13.10 machine to compare the help docs to.

 19:10 <godbyk> I spent most of my time just merging upstream GNOME docs into our documentation.  There are still a fair number of pages that need merging/updating.

 19:11 <bkerensa> I think the confusion over translations was not exactly great but this is something we can overcome in 14.04

 19:11 <pleia2> dsmythies: good observation, I think that's a solid thing we can improve upon

 19:12 * bkerensa is already running 14.04 :)

 19:12 <godbyk> Going forward, I think we'll be better off as we can start work much earlier in the cycle.

 19:12 <pleia2> bkerensa: yeah, I think we knew we'd have some technical process hiccups, hopefully our notes are good enough for next time around :)

 19:12 <pleia2> godbyk: +1

 19:12 <godbyk> We got off to a late start for 13.10 as we had to figure out how to do everything. :)

 19:13 <dsmythies> I did not know how to help Kevin with the upstream GNOME stuff

 19:13 <pmatulis_> this cycle was one of the worst for the server guide in terms of content contribution

 19:13 <godbyk> dsmythies: It's a fairly manual process. Visually diffing our docs and GNOME docs and merging where it seems appropriate.

 19:13 <pleia2> #subtopic How can we improve?

 19:13 <eagles0513875_> sorry im late

 19:13 <godbyk> pmatulis_: Lack of contributors or lack of quality of contributions?

 19:13 <pleia2> (we seem to be moving into this topic)

 19:14 <pmatulis_> godbyk: both

 19:14 <eagles0513875_> pleia2: i do have a way we can potentially make joining teams a bit easier as well as versioning of documentation

 19:14 <eagles0513875_> but it will require some work and it beats reinventing the wheel

 19:14 <bkerensa> I think peer approval for merges would be nice it just lends extra eyes to pushes so if a mistake is made by a contributor it is not overlooked and does not have to be fixed with another push or even worse a SRU after release

 19:14 <pleia2> eagles0513875_: we're reviewing the good, bad and ugly of the 13.04 release cycle, perhaps we can wait on your comments on this?

 19:15 <pleia2> so I think for both server and desktop it would be very useful to have a schedule for "call for contributions" with specific instructions on how to help

 19:15 <godbyk> I think we should start our work much earlier. For example, we can finish merging upstream GNOME docs for trusty today. Then we can go back and review the docs to bring them up to date for 13.10 at least.

 19:15 <eagles0513875_> sure i wasnt part of 13.04 documentation sadly so i will be quiet please ping me ill be here

 19:15 <pleia2> I think a lot of folks on the mailing list simply weren't aware that the server guide needed help

 19:15 <eagles0513875_> pleia2:may i make a comment in general though between community docs vs official docs

 19:16 <pleia2> (I was kind of tunnel visioned on desktop this cycle)

 19:16 <pleia2> eagles0513875_: please wait until later in the meeting, we want to keep this on topic :)

 19:16 <pleia2> community vs official is a big discussion

 19:16 <godbyk> pleia2: True. I tended to leave the serverguide stuff to Doug. He seemed pretty quick at jumping on bugs and the like.

 19:17 <bkerensa> I think a weekly status e-mail being sent to mailing list with outstanding bugs and merge proposals (see peer review suggestion above) should be sent out so everyone is abreast of work to be done

 19:17 <godbyk> And someone dsmythies also managed to make huge contributions to the desktop docs, too.

 19:17 <pleia2> yeah, dsmythies was very busy :)

 19:17 <bkerensa> monthly meetings for the first part of the cycle and then weekly meetings for the last month until release

 19:17 <pleia2> bkerensa: maybe every other week? but yeah, that'd be great, I can help out there

 19:17 <bkerensa> sure

 19:17 <dsmythies> I think we were all busy.

 19:18 <bkerensa> indeed

 19:18 <bkerensa> if we break the tasks up

 19:18 <bkerensa> it would be easier

 19:18 <pleia2> #subtopic What should we do differently for 14.04?

 19:18 <pleia2> I guess we're sort of talking about this now too :)

 19:18 <bkerensa> one week doug does status e-mail, next kevin, then me, then pleia2

 19:18 <godbyk> bkerensa: +1. I think knowing who's taking responsibility for what would be helpful.

 19:18 <bkerensa> one week kevin does merge proposal reviews then me, and so on

 19:18 <pleia2> I don't know that we have to be so formal about MPs

 19:18 <bkerensa> we can track the assignments on a wiki page

 19:19 <pleia2> unless it becomes a problem (I don't think it was last cycle)

 19:19 <godbyk> The merge proposals that I've reviewed have tended to be pretty short and simple to review.

 19:19 <dsmythies> The serverguide wiki page for tasks is working very well.

 19:19 <pleia2> dsmythies: link?

 19:19 <bkerensa> pleia2: it is not a necessity since were not a development team but it isnt something every other official team including Juju Docs does

 19:19 <bkerensa> were the only team that does not do it

 19:20 <pleia2> bkerensa: well we don't have paid employees who are reportable to a boss who tracks such things :)

 19:20 <dsmythies> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide

 19:20 <pleia2> ah yes

 19:20 <godbyk> bkerensa: The manual team doesn't use MPs, either. In fact, anyone can join the team and start committing to the repository immediately.

 19:21 <godbyk> bkerensa: So far we haven't had any issues with vandalism. Occasionally someone breaks the build, but it's always been an easy fix.

 19:21 <pleia2> interesting

 19:21 <bkerensa> godbyk: Yeah but the manual team is also not an official Ubuntu project ;)

 19:21 <bkerensa> thats the big difference

 19:21 <godbyk> bkerensa: A fair point.

 19:21 <pleia2> ok, I think we have some good ideas here

 19:21 <godbyk> bkerensa: What's the benefit of using MPs?

 19:21 <bkerensa> godbyk: Ensure quality

 19:22 <pleia2> also making an effort to comb through the wiki to find out what else we need to update would be good

 19:22 <eagles0513875_> brb

 19:22 <godbyk> Something else that we should try to assess: are there  *new* documentation pages that should be written that don't exist?

 19:22 <pleia2> I know phillw is still confused about some of the tooling between flavors, and if he's confused than I'm sure other are :) so I think it would be great to get a page together linking to what each uses

 19:22 <godbyk> So far we've been concerned only with updating existing pages.

 19:22 <dsmythies> In the next cycle, we would hope that more people will use the new getting started page and contribute via MP, because they are not doc-committers

 19:22 <bkerensa> godbyk: surely there are lots.... jbicha and I had discussed this a few cycles back

 19:22 <godbyk> Are there obsolete pages we need to delete?  New pages we need to create?

 19:23 <bkerensa> Privacy needs a page

 19:23 <bkerensa> there are lots of things that do

 19:23 <dsmythies> I put a few "missing" page notes on the google list.

 19:23 <pleia2> dsmythies: nice

 19:23 <bkerensa> dsmythies: excellent

 19:23 <pleia2> any other thoughs before we move off from this topic?

 19:24 <godbyk> pleia2: Agreed. I think a general cleanup of the ubuntu-docs wiki pages would be helpful. Section off the different subprojects to clarify what pages refer to what.

 19:24 * pleia2 nods

 19:24 <pleia2> in all I think we did pretty awesomely this cycle all things considered, so good work everyone :)

 19:25 <pleia2> #topic Adding classroom sessions for wiki / docs

 19:25 <pleia2> I always love classroom sessions :)

 19:26 <pleia2> who added this? any specific comments?

 19:26 <godbyk> I'm not sure who added it, but I like the idea.

 19:26 * slickymaster thinks that perhaps phillw

 19:26 <godbyk> It's a great way to introduce people to the docs projects and to reduce the barrier to entry and help with the learning curve.

 19:26 <bkerensa> probably phillw

 19:26 <pleia2> the classroom schedule has been pretty sparse lately, so whenever anyone wants to host one, just let me know (or drop by #ubuntu-classroom-backstage)

 19:27 <bkerensa> good good

 19:27 <pleia2> there was also talk of doing a "docs day" or tacking it on to something like Open Week if that's done again

 19:27 <pleia2> maybe take this item to the mailing list so we can brainstorm session ideas and instructors

 19:27 <godbyk> pleia2: good idea.

 19:27 <pleia2> #action pleia2 to email list re: classroom sessions

 19:27 * meetingology pleia2 to email list re: classroom sessions

 19:28 <pleia2> #topic Collaboration opportunities between documentation projects

 19:28 <pleia2> so I think this was primarily about collaboration with the manual project

 19:29 <godbyk> I think the manual project would be happy to collaborate with the docs projects.

 19:29 <godbyk> I don't think we can simply copy and paste text from one to another as the writing styles differ, but I think that we can definitely help each other out.

 19:29 * pleia2 nods

 19:29 <godbyk> For example, we all need to keep track of what docs need to be updated each cycle.

 19:30 <godbyk> There's no reason we can't share our findings there.

 19:30 <pleia2> +1

 19:30 <godbyk> If one team discovers that Application X has changed its UI or somesuch, then they can share that with the other docs teams.

 19:30 <pleia2> I think that's a great way to start

 19:30 <godbyk> There's also a lot of general discussion that can be shared among the docs teams, too.

 19:31 <pleia2> I'm subscribed to both mailing lists, but unfortunately haven't had a look at the manual in a couple cycles

 19:31 <godbyk> How to improve our technical writing, establishing canonical names for UI elements, and so forth.

 19:31 <pleia2> yeah, it would be nice to merge our style guidelines

 19:32 <slickymaster> +1

 19:32 <godbyk> Yes, many of the style guidelines should be identical across the docs projects.

 19:32 <pleia2> so maybe we start with those, propose to the manual team a shared wiki/document/whatever for "what's new" then maybe someone can compare our style guidelines and start a dialog there

 19:32 <pleia2> godbyk: care to take on the "what's new" proposal?

 19:32 <godbyk> And the closer they're in line with the GNOME docs style guide, the easier it'll be to merge in GNOME docs.

 19:32 <godbyk> pleia2: Sure!

 19:33 <phillw> I know that the issue of docs and manual does cause issues; I also know we will not agree upon an common system. Which is somewhat frustrating :) If others would assist on classroom sessions for docs / manual; I'm more than happy to do wiki as either classroom or 1-2-1 sessions.

 19:33 <pleia2> #action godbyk to propose sharing what's new collaborative docs with manual team

 19:33 * meetingology godbyk to propose sharing what's new collaborative docs with manual team

 19:34 <dsmythies> I am not familiar with xubuntu. is there any overlap between ubuntu and xubuntu?

 19:34 <phillw> for people running the release+1`I'll also be happy to assist as a tester :)

 19:34 <godbyk> One of the issues I've heard raised about the manual/docs teams is that there's a fear that having two teams reduces the number of contributors to each team.

 19:35 <pleia2> anyone want to take an action item for reviewing the style guidelines for both teams? I'm thinking review, report findings and then approach both teams to discuss differences and merging them

 19:35 <godbyk> I'm not sure that's actually the case. If it were, I'd expect to see more overlap in the team membership.

 19:35 <phillw> dsmythies: we all are from the same family, whilst our DE's are differebt, our core is the same.

 19:35 <godbyk> For the most part, the manual's style guide should be identical to the Ubuntu docs style guide (and GNOME docs style guide) except for formatting information.

 19:36 <pleia2> dsmythies: the xubuntu documentation is in docbook and completely different than ubuntu's, maintained by xubuntu folks (including me)

 19:36 <godbyk> You can find the manual's style guide at <http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf>.

 19:37 <bkerensa> I have to run

 19:37 <godbyk> Okay. Thanks for coming, bkerensa!

 19:38 <eagles0513875_> im back all

 19:39 <godbyk> Welcome back, eagles0513875_.  We were just discussing collaboration opportunities between documentation projects.

 19:39 <eagles0513875_> thanks for the update

 19:39 <eagles0513875_> that is essential

 19:40 <pleia2> ok, I think we have a good plan here

 19:40 <eagles0513875_> i can point out one major flaw between community vs official documentatino

 19:40 <pleia2> I can look at the style guides and report back if needed

 19:40 <pleia2> #topic Trusty (14.04) DeskTop help series/branch now online

 19:40 <pleia2> hooray \o/

 19:40 <pleia2> #subtopic How can we start working on ubuntu-docs for 14.04?

 19:41 <godbyk> I created a new branch and series for trusty. If anyone notices anything wrong with how I have it set up, please let me know. (It's my first time doing so for the ubuntu-docs project.)

 19:41 <dsmythies> Suggest conintued use of: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsSw0cKYcffNdFlFakF5M0VjR002UEVvakVPZGpydHc#gid=0

 19:41 <godbyk> I'd like to finish merging in the GNOME docs that I didn't get to for 13.10.

 19:41 <dsmythies> Kevin: I had a good look at the setup and didn't see anything wrong.

 19:41 <eagles0513875_> what is the advantage of using bzr instead of proper document management system to manage document versions

 19:42 <godbyk> Then we can tackle bugs that have been filed against 13.10 and any bugs filed against earlier versions that we didn't get around to tafixing.

 19:42 <godbyk> fixing, rather.

 19:42 <godbyk> dsmythies: Ah, great. Thanks!

 19:42 <pleia2> should we send a mail to the list reminding folks how to contribute now that it's open?

 19:42 <pleia2> beyond the branch command :)

 19:42 <godbyk> eagles0513875_: We use bzr for the system docs because we're using the Mallard markup language. I'm not aware of any online editors for Mallard at the moment.

 19:43 <pleia2> I can follow up with godbyk's email with some more exact instructions to help folks out

 19:43 <godbyk> pleia2: Yeah.  A quick, one-page 'here's how to contribute' and 'here's what we need your help with' guide would be helpful.

 19:43 <pleia2> #action pleia2 to follow up on list re: quick get involved for trusty

 19:43 * meetingology pleia2 to follow up on list re: quick get involved for trusty

 19:44 <godbyk> dsmythies: We should also sort out the GNOME Shell/Unity platform-detection issues with Mallard, too.

 19:45 <eagles0513875_> pleia2: can i bring up another rather heated topic here

 19:45 <dsmythies> Yes, I think it is important. I did not realize how the issue upsets translators.

 19:45 <eagles0513875_> which i can back up with examples

 19:45 <godbyk> dsmythies: Yeah, I didn't either.

 19:45 <pleia2> ok, I think that's good for how to get involved

 19:45 <pleia2> #topic Any other business

 19:46 <eagles0513875_> pleia2:

 19:46 <eagles0513875_> 2 things

 19:46 <pleia2> eagles0513875_: go ahead now (next time please go ahead and add your item to the agenda so we make sure we get to it and it's on the schedule :))

 19:46 <eagles0513875_> 1) how can we ensure that there arent any discrepencies between community and official documentation

 19:46 <phillw> pleia2: feel free to ask, I did the re-write of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Activities it was a major roject; but I do feel we need it.

 19:46 <phillw> *project*

 19:46 <eagles0513875_> if you look at the community versions of dovecot and postfix and compare to the official 12.04 server guide for instance

 19:46 <eagles0513875_> they are two different things all together

 19:46 <pleia2> so I think the key here will be leveraging our bug reporting system to correct these issues

 19:47 <godbyk> pleia2: +1

 19:47 <eagles0513875_> 2) i have been looking into the Alfresco document management  and its very extensible as well as very powerful for versioning of documents as well as images

 19:47 <eagles0513875_> it has a built in wiki as well as bug tracker for each project

 19:47 <pleia2> no one has looked at them for a long time, once we've got bugs in place we can start working to bring them back up to sync, and maintain them from there

 19:47 <phillw> eagles0513875_: hopefully with using the tags, we can better get them sync'd up.

 19:48 <eagles0513875_> phillw: pleia2  i would like to potentially push using alfresco

 19:48 <eagles0513875_> http://www.alfresco.com/

 19:48 <eagles0513875_> that would require me to make a juju charm for mhall to use to deploy it for testing

 19:48 <pleia2> eagles0513875_: I appreciate the work you've put in here, but it's really a major project and I'm thinking that right at this moment we want to work to use the tools we have now that we have an active team

 19:48 <pleia2> I think the core issue is that for the past few years, no one has been overseeing this

 19:49 <eagles0513875_> pleia2: agreed it will be a task to implement down the line not necessarily for this release cycle

 19:49 <eagles0513875_> would it be something i should invest my time in working on a charm for?

 19:49 <phillw> pleia2: eagles0513875_ that is a +1 from me; it is too big a change to undertake with an LTS coming up.

 19:49 <pleia2> eagles0513875_: my inclination is to see how we do this next cycle with improving our current infrastructure now that we have the team in place

 19:49 <phillw> eagles0513875_: go for it!

 19:50 <pleia2> eagles0513875_: I honestly think your time is much better spent going through the docs and figuring out what is duplicated, incorrect and filing bugs

 19:50 <phillw> but do not lose time and effort on what we have

 19:50 <eagles0513875_> agreed and dont get me wrong it might not be ready for even the 14.10 as it would involve working out some kinks wiht open jdk and alfresco

 19:50 <eagles0513875_> pleia2: agreed can already file two bugs between community and official docs for postfix and dovecot would need to check the 13.10 docs though

 19:51 <eagles0513875_> phillw: pleia2 you guys seem to be saying two different things

 19:51 <pleia2> eagles0513875_: indeed we are

 19:51 <godbyk> eagles0513875_: In addition to getting Alfresco up and running, we also have to consider how it impacts our workflow.

 19:51 <godbyk> eagles0513875_: For example, right now we inherit a lot of documentation from the GNOME project.

 19:51 <eagles0513875_> phillw:  you say go for it for future roll out and testing and pleia2 you are saying to wait

 19:51 <pleia2> eagles0513875_: looks like phillw and I disagree :)

 19:51 <godbyk> eagles0513875_: How easily can we stay in sync with GNOME if we're using Alfresco?

 19:51 <eagles0513875_> godbyk: it will be easy to track whose doing what as you can assign tasks to people

 19:52 <pleia2> eagles0513875_: gnome documentation is written in mallard

 19:52 <pleia2> that's not going to change

 19:52 <eagles0513875_> asking in the alfresco channel about that

 19:52 <phillw> eagles0513875_: please continue to look at alfresco; but 14,04 takes precedence. I do not think that is an opposing postion :)

 19:52 <eagles0513875_> agreed 14.04 does take presedence.

 19:52 <eagles0513875_> i think though some sort of approval and verification of the community docs needs to be put in place

 19:53 <dsmythies> somtimes differences between wiki and official docs is just two different ways of doing the same thing. I find different ways of doing the same thing one of the challenges of linux.

 19:53 <pleia2> phillw: I just don't want him to waste his time if we do manage to get the docs in order with our current workflow, and we really do need people reviewing the docs and submitting bugs about issues between them

 19:53 <mhall119> eagles0513875_: might I recommend that before spending a lot of time on a specific implementation, you first put together a wiki spec page detailing the requires & desired features of any solution, and marking how well Alfresco provide them

 19:54 <pleia2> dsmythies: I'd like to see something like: wiki page links to official documentation, then goes on to explain other ways, additional details, etc

 19:54 <eagles0513875_> mhall119: not a bad idea but im no pro in terms of wiki writing lol

 19:54 <dsmythies> Currently, it seems the other way around. The offcical doc refers to the wiki page, at least in serverguide.

 19:54 <eagles0513875_> O_o

 19:55 <phillw> pleia2: you get a +1 from me, but also it is good for new comers to look at new systems,. Just because we have always done things one way; does not mean we should ignore changes. But; 14.04 LTS is not the time.

 19:55 <eagles0513875_> why on earth would official docs refer to community docs which could for anyones concern could be wrong

 19:55 <eagles0513875_> would it be possible to put in a review mechanism

 19:55 <eagles0513875_> if we are using bzr is it possible actually to implement something like gerrit which is a patch review system

 19:55 <bkerensa> :D

 19:55 <bkerensa> back

 19:56 <bkerensa> \o/

 19:56 <pleia2> dsmythies: well I think they can go both ways, official doc references wiki for more details, wiki references official for basics

 19:56 <eagles0513875_> not sure if it would work for documentation but it is a very useful way to keep trac of changes review them and push them

 19:56 <eagles0513875_> to bzr potentially im not sure though

 19:56 <pleia2> eagles0513875_: right now merges from no-core folks need to go through the merge proposal process, so core members review and approve

 19:56 <pleia2> it's not as good or easy as gerrit, but it works

 19:57 <eagles0513875_> pleia2: i think everythign should be approved

 19:57 <godbyk> eagles0513875_: While that would be nice, I don't think we have enough people to manage that.

 19:58 <eagles0513875_> agreed.

 19:58 <pleia2> I don't think we want a formal review system on the wiki, freedom is kind of the point of a wiki :) and we do have admins who keep an eye on content as best they can

 19:58 <eagles0513875_> the lil wiki work i have done with mallard and the wiki system it is a bit cumbersom

 19:58 <eagles0513875_> pleia2: then someones 7 year old can write something and it will be total and utter rubbish

 19:58 <pleia2> eagles0513875_: yes, and hopefully one of our wiki admins will delete it

 19:59 <pleia2> or someone will tag it as such, or somehow it'll be found, it's the wikipedia model

 19:59 <bkerensa> pleia2: has there been any thought on cleaning up inactive people from doc core etc?

 19:59 <pleia2> bkerensa: I don't think so

 19:59 <eagles0513875_> do people get notified when somethign is tagged

 19:59 <pleia2> eagles0513875_: wiki admins should be subscribed to the whole thing, so yes they would be

 19:59 <phillw> pleia2: I do, however, ask that we alert as many people as we can to the tags. that will allow many sets of eyes to look at pages and flag things up. I do feel the tagging system has not been used to its full capabilities.

 19:59 <pleia2> any changes on any page

 19:59 <godbyk> eagles0513875_: A lot of people subscribe to wiki pages that they're interested in. So they'll receive notification when the page is tagged or modified.

 20:00 <pleia2> phillw: +1

 20:00 <bkerensa> phillw: do we know how many wiki pages we have currently?

 20:00 <bkerensa> is it not in the hundreds or more?

 20:00 <eagles0513875_> godbyk: is there a way if certain tags are used lets say needs update admins take a look at the page and potentially update it

 20:00 <pleia2> phillw: what's the url to help wiki tags again?

 20:01 <phillw> pleia2: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag

 20:01 <pleia2> eagles0513875_: ^^ there you go

 20:01 <eagles0513875_> another thign we could do instead of using alfresco as the base. use its api and develop somethign that is more tailor made for ubuntu

 20:01 <godbyk> eagles0513875_: As an example, you can visit <https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/NeedsUpdating/List> to see all the pages that have been tageed 'Needs Updating'.

 20:02 <phillw> eagles0513875_: the wiki machine can go tag hunting :)

 20:02 <phillw> that's why they need to be at the yop of the page.

 20:02 <phillw> *top*

 20:02 <pleia2> godbyk: bad example, that page is broken :) phillw can you fix?

 20:02 <pleia2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/Duplicate/List works

 20:03 <godbyk> pleia2: I just noticed that. :)

 20:03 <eagles0513875_> can i be honest

 20:03 <eagles0513875_> the mallard markup i find to be rather cumbersom to work with

 20:03 <pleia2> oh, we're over time, so we should wrap up

 20:03 <eagles0513875_> my fault

 20:03 <eagles0513875_> i have so many ideas hehe

 20:03 <phillw> eagles0513875_: we ask for nothing less on a meeting :)

 20:03 <eagles0513875_> ok last suggestion

 20:03 <pleia2> eagles0513875_: we're tied to gnome, so it's not something we'll be changing in the near future

 20:03 <pleia2> unless we can make clones of godbyk

 20:03 <eagles0513875_> phillw: pleia2  and not for 14.04 something of a long term project

 20:04 <eagles0513875_> why not use the api for alfresco and develop something tailor made for the canonical projects such as ubuntu kubuntu documentation and others

 20:04 <pleia2> then you have the problem with making the clones grow fast, and stop growing when they are godbyk's age, and you have to feed them

 20:04 <bkerensa> pleia2: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/+members#active

 20:04 <bkerensa> so adam sommers doesnt contribute anymore

 20:04 * godbyk does like to eat.

 20:04 <pleia2> bkerensa: noted, but a discussion for later, I think

 20:04 <bkerensa> david wonderly also left Kubuntu and Kubuntu killed their docs

 20:04 <bkerensa> ok

 20:04 <phillw> eagles0513875_: by all means, but with the LTS coming up and how few we are in number, please to not spend too much time away for us... We need people like you.

 20:05 <godbyk> bkerensa: We could set expiration dates for everyone and if they don't renew, then they vanish.

 20:05 <eagles0513875_> phillw: thanks if only you knew how many projects i have on my plate

 20:05 <bkerensa> godbyk: poof

 20:05 <eagles0513875_> personal business projects

 20:05 <godbyk> bkerensa: As long as all the active team members remember to renew (*cough*), it works okay.

 20:05 <eagles0513875_> i should register lol

 20:05 <bkerensa> eagles0513875_: surely thats understandable and we also don't want you to get burnt out :)

 20:05 <pleia2> eagles0513875_: I don't know enough about alfrescos's api to respond intelligently to your proposal, but it certainly may be a way to go :)

 20:06 <eagles0513875_> pleia2: we coudl even develop an addon for the community as a whole of alfresco that provides mallard support

 20:06 <eagles0513875_> whats so great about mallard anyway

 20:06 <pleia2> gnome uses it ;)

 20:06 <eagles0513875_> you mean upstream?

 20:06 <godbyk> eagles0513875_: pleia2 pretty well summed it up. The Mallard markup is used both for the desktop help and for generating the HTML for the online help.

 20:06 <godbyk> eagles0513875_: Yes.

 20:07 <phillw> this has been a fantastic brain storming session, thanks pleia2 for being the driver :)

 20:07 <eagles0513875_> i wonder though the html if it could be stripped to leave just the text

 20:07 <eagles0513875_> humm food for thought there lol

 20:07 <godbyk> Yeah, thanks for running the meeting, pleia2!

 20:07 <eagles0513875_> thanks pleia2  :)

 20:07 <pleia2> ok, thanks everyone :)

 20:07 <eagles0513875_> btw

 20:07 <eagles0513875_> probably stupid way to end the meeting it might be a good idea to send out an email with a link on how new members can sign up

 20:07 <godbyk> eagles0513875_: Mallard is XML-based, so it could be transformed to plain text or other markup languages.

 20:07 <eagles0513875_> sry for my delayed responses im at work multitasking

 20:08 <pleia2> eagles0513875_: sign up?

 20:08 <bkerensa> eagles0513875_: I plan to do quarterly calls for contributors

 20:08 <eagles0513875_> pleia2: to become an official member of the doc team

 20:08 <bkerensa> eagles0513875_: they may not be as nice as pleia2's well written one though :)

 20:08 <eagles0513875_> ok kool :) well i would like to contribute

 20:08 <eagles0513875_> also may i add if you guys need a testing vps i can happiily provide one :)

 20:08 <dsmythies> Thanks pleia2 and everyone. I have to exit.

 20:08 <godbyk> Thanks, eagles0513875_.

 20:08 <bkerensa> dsmythies: thanks!

 20:09 <godbyk> Thanks for coming, dsmythies!

 20:09 <eagles0513875_> so if you want to setup stuff using the steps in the documentation just ping me and let me know and i can ge tit setup :)

 20:09 <eagles0513875_> thanks dsmythies  :)

 20:09 <pleia2> team structure is probably a different discussion ;) but I'm not an "official member" and I'm participating

 20:09 <eagles0513875_> got it

 20:09 <Riddell> bkerensa: our docs are back in 13.10

 20:09 <pleia2> you don't need a badge to participate

 20:09 <eagles0513875_> bkerensa: are you an official document team member

 20:09 <eagles0513875_> hi Riddell  :)

 20:09 <pleia2> anyway, time to wrap up!

 20:09 <pleia2> #endmeeting



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