19:59 <AlanBell> #startmeeting IRC team
19:59 <meetingology> Meeting started Sun Sep 29 19:59:43 2013 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
19:59 <meetingology> 
19:59 <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
19:59 <TheLordOfTime> o/
19:59 <phunyguy> o/
20:00 <AlanBell> hi all, thanks for popping along, here is the agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
20:00 <topyli> o/
20:01 <IdleOne> o/
20:01 <Pici>20:01 <Pici> oops, silly autocomplete
20:01 <topyli> :)
20:02 <AlanBell> heh, ok, so lets get started
20:02 <AlanBell> #topic Review last meetings action items
20:02 <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/IRCC/20130825 is the last minutes, and I had an action
20:02 <AlanBell> which was to look into cloaks, and here is the results . . .
20:03 <AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6172733/
20:03 <AlanBell> so that is people who are in the list of people we think we gave a cloak to, but who are not in ubuntumembers any more
20:03 <Pici> hmm
20:03 <AlanBell> and I tweaked the script a bit to output IRC nicks as well as launchpad names
20:04 <AlanBell> there are 35 of them I think
20:04 <TheLordOfTime> 36 if i'm counting right.
20:04 <AlanBell> some may not be using the cloak now, some may have forgotten to press the renew button, some might need an unaffiliated cloak
20:05 <AlanBell> yeah, could be 36, there were about that and I dealt with one, maybe there were 37 initially
20:06 <Pici> There are at least one or two on there that look like they might have forgotten to renew
20:06 <AlanBell> so, from that list does anything leap out at people as hugely wrong, or some kind of issue we should be careful with?
20:06 <Pici> well, soren is on there, and I'm pretty sure hes still active.
20:06 <IdleOne> soren just expired this past week
20:07 <IdleOne> probably busy and forgot to click the button
20:07 <Pici> uh, from the team?
20:07 <IdleOne> yeah
20:07 <IdleOne> this week or last. I remember seeing the email
20:07 <Pici> I almost thought you were using the other meaning of expired there for a second.
20:08 <Pici> Hospital work is rubbing off of me :/
20:08 <phunyguy> he is in here, but idle.
20:08 <AlanBell> :)
20:08 <IdleOne> Pici: I would not have been so emotionless about it :)
20:08 <AlanBell> that is actually one reason I am throwing the list up here for review before trying to contact them individually
20:09 <IdleOne> AlanBell: there is no way for you to get dates of when they membersips expired?
20:09 <IdleOne> memberships*
20:09 <Pici> There should be, its just not being output.
20:09 <AlanBell> hmm, no, not really (but you could)
20:09 <AlanBell> I can't see expired memberships in ~ubuntumembers
20:09 <Myrtti> well, you can take Andre from the list of people to be contacted...
20:10 <IdleOne> I think anyone who has been expired for 30+ days you could just go ahead and remove from the team. they can always be re-added later if/when they ask.
20:10 <Myrtti> n'est pas
20:10 <AlanBell> however, I don't think it matters too much
20:10 <Pici> Myrtti: ah. yes :(
20:10 <AlanBell> it isn't about removing them from the team, it is removing the cloak
20:10 <IdleOne> right
20:10 <AlanBell> and we tend to ask if they want an unaffiliated one instead
20:11 <Pici> Myrtti: thanks for catching that. :(
20:11 <Myrtti> Pici: well, since you mentioned the other meaning for "expired"...
20:12 <Pici> yea. .. :/
20:12 <topyli> :(
20:12 <phunyguy> :(
20:12 <AlanBell> :( indeed
20:12 <IdleOne> Well this escalated quickly :(
20:13 <IdleOne> alright, so yeah, contact people and ask if they want to renew membership or change cloak
20:13 <funkyHat> Hi people, sorry I'm late
20:13 <AlanBell> so, we will process the list, contacting and removing cloaks as we go, and this is exactly why I wanted to wave the list about first for review
20:13 <AlanBell> ok, moving on
20:13 <topyli> hi funkyHat
20:14 <AlanBell> #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker
20:14 <IdleOne> hello funkyHat
20:15 <AlanBell> now here we have screwed up slightly, there were a couple of very stale items in the tracker, it stopped emailing us when we did that silly thing where it was constantly raising tickets for every email that happened
20:15 <AlanBell> I think the items that are there are no longer relevant but we need to be better at using the tracker if we are going to have it :/
20:15 <Pici> agreed
20:16 <Pici> We should be more dilligent about manually putting items in there too.
20:17 <Pricey> Items? I only see one. #887544 ?
20:17 <Pici> I think we're talking about the private tracker.
20:17 <AlanBell> different tracker
20:17 <Pricey> Sneaky.
20:17 <TheLordOfTime> heh
20:17 <topyli> Pricey: this is our secret tracker where we talk about you behind your back
20:18 <IdleOne> under your nose
20:18 <AlanBell> yeah, it is an appeals tracker of sorts, private because it relates to specific people and wasn't considered suitable for launchpad bug process
20:20 <AlanBell> lvmer and itoast are the nicks concerned in the issues
20:20 <AlanBell> lvmer wasn't actually banned
20:20 <Pici> if you don't remember them, its because they're stale... very stale.
20:21 <IdleOne> if they concern me in any way just go ahead and drop them.
20:21 <AlanBell> so, we will close them, check the tracker is working correctly and move on I think
20:21 <Pici> heh
20:21 <IdleOne> you have my permission :)
20:21 <phunyguy> mine too...
20:21 <phunyguy> ;)
20:22 <Pici> So whats up next?
20:22 <AlanBell> #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
20:23 <AlanBell> not got any bugs apart from the incomplete one, which is still a bit open
20:23 <topyli> we have one bug, which might as well be closed WONTFIX. no-one has come up with great ideas
20:23 <AlanBell> I can't close it wontfix
20:24 <AlanBell> opinion will have to do
20:24 <topyli> oh yes i'm confusing launchpad with bugzilla
20:24 <Pricey> #887544 reads pretty silly to me. You can't aim to remove all bans within X days...
20:24 <AlanBell> there is a won't fix status, but I can't use it
20:25 <TheLordOfTime> AlanBell, bug supervisors for the community project need to set it
20:25 <TheLordOfTime> limitation of the LP bug tracker system
20:25 <AlanBell> Pricey: it was more that we didn't have any statistics on it, but agreed, it isn't a useful metric even if we could measure it
20:25 <AlanBell> #topic Logging and the irclogs.ubuntu.com archive
20:25 <AlanBell> So just to frame this discussion and set expectations a bit, someone raised an issue on the IRC discussions mailing list that they were concerned about conversations that they had in the past being available on the web and indexed by search engines.
20:25 <AlanBell> that conversation may be viewed here https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/2013-September/thread.html
20:25 <AlanBell> We probably won't be deciding any specific actions today, but this is an opportunity to bring the conversation about IRC into the medium of IRC, and we can perhaps figure out if there are any proposals that are worth further discussion.
20:26 <AlanBell> so, open to the floor, what do people think about this?
20:26 <TheLordOfTime> My two-cents on the issue are that the person involved is far too concerned about their own privacy
20:26 <Fuchs> People are informed that the channel is publically logged
20:26 <Pici> I'm not really sure why IRC logging is a problem when the Forum archives are preserved for posterity as well.
20:26 <AlanBell> oh, also the whole "bug comments on launchpad" bit is out of scope for us
20:26 <Fuchs> there are lots of places both on the internet and in real life where you can't request that content is removed
20:26 <Pricey> TheLordOfTime: That's not reasonable.
20:26 <TheLordOfTime> I've been on IRC here for a long while, and as Fuchs pointed out, there's notices that the channel is publicly logged.
20:26 <Fuchs> if they have an issue with that, they shouldn't be on IRC.
20:26 <TheLordOfTime> Pricey, that's one of the points I think and you're right it is unreasonable.
20:27 <Pici> I'm curious if the forums have their own policy about content removal.
20:27 <Fuchs> The benefits of that  (people being able to find problems and their solutions via google and similar) are _way_ bigger than the downsides, so I'd say: keep logging as usual
20:27 <Pricey> TheLordOfTime: No, I think you're being unreasonable to say they are "too concerned".
20:27 <TheLordOfTime> Pricey, equally unreasonable is the expectation of removal of their own items per request from the logs, and that the logs should be private.
20:27 <Myrtti> I can't remember if I said it already somewhere, but as long as the joins/parts/quits/nicks with hostmasks are removed, it doesn't really matter
20:27 <TheLordOfTime> Pricey, then perhaps my wording was bad
20:27 <Pici> Myrtti: I think you did.. somewhere.
20:27 <Pici> I remember reading it at least ;)
20:27 <TheLordOfTime> Pricey, regardless, it's generally unreasonable, I think, that the channel's logs should be considered a medium for cyber-stalking per their arguments.
20:27 <Myrtti> anyone can use a random char generator to generate a nickname for themselves for each time they use IRC if they're concerned about the privacy of the logs
20:27 <AlanBell> I think we would be prepared to edit the logs in exceptional circumstances (like someone Doxing a minor)
20:28 <TheLordOfTime> (I can say the same about LP, but that's a discussion for elsewhere)
20:28 <Fuchs> I am not sure about the english forums, ubuntuusers.de definitely has the  "no, we won't" policy. We've been recently asked to remove content  (change the name of someone in every single posting it was mentioned), which was simply turned down.
20:28 <AlanBell> and yes, we don't log joins/parts
20:28 <TheLordOfTime> AlanBell, I agree with you there, super exceptional circumstances are different.
20:28 <Pici> As much as we hate to admit it, there isn't much we could do if someone else wanted to publish their own chat logs of the channel.
20:29 <TheLordOfTime> Agreed, accordingly, I also believe that there's no expectation of privacy in a publicly-able-to-be-joined IRC channel.
20:29 <TheLordOfTime> if the channel were +i, and semi-private, that'd be a different story
20:29 <AlanBell> one of the proposals was to put a robots.txt in place to encourage search engines to not index it, what do you think about that?
20:30 <Fuchs> against it. As I wrote, the main reason of that _is_ that they are indexed,
20:30 <phunyguy> easily exploitable.
20:30 <Pricey> AlanBell: I think you covered that well in your mail.
20:30 <Pici> Fuchs: +1
20:30 <Fuchs> so that people can find conversations, including support, to a given problem
20:30 <TheLordOfTime> Fuchs: +1 here
20:30 <topyli> indexing is why the logs are useful
20:30 <Myrtti> I think it's actually an asset we publish the logs
20:30 <Myrtti> it disincentives someone else publishing them
20:31 <Flannel> Even if we decided to support the robots.txt, we'd need to get the support of *all* channels, including -devel, -meeting, and all the loco teams, because the logs are all together.
20:31 <topyli> Myrtti: that's true also
20:31 <TheLordOfTime> valid point, Flannel.
20:31 <AlanBell> Flannel: actually no, you can do wildcards in robots.txt
20:31 <Pricey> Does the ircc even have control over irclogs.ubuntu.com ?
20:31 <Pici> Not directly.
20:31 <IdleOne> How many thousands of nicks are logged and indexed without issue? I think this topic has already been given way too much attention. I respect the concerns of the individual but I don't think we need to change how things are because of one individual.
20:31 <AlanBell> so a single channel could be excluded, it is a slightly nonstandard syntax but google supports it
20:32 <TheLordOfTime> I'm going to agree with IdleOne's opinion 100%.  I'm not sure the arguments brought up in the ML by the individual are entirely supported by evidence...
20:33 <AlanBell> Pricey: I expect we could arrange for a robots.txt to be put in place or any other changes under discussion if we wanted to do so
20:33 <Flannel> AlanBell: Just because google supports it doesn't mean everyone does.  And, to that point, means that a private mirror/index wouldn't either, so I think robots.txt is an ineffective solution to begin with, someone malicious can easily circumvent it.
20:33 <phunyguy> indeed.  Everything you want to hide, in plain text, in a single file.
20:33 <Pricey> AlanBell: Makes me find this amusing..
20:34 <topyli> i for one am greatly amused when i find my embarrassing mailing list and usenet contributions from the 90s when searching for stuff :)
20:34 <Myrtti> I think it's hilarous
20:34 <Flannel> phunyguy: Forget everything you want to hide, just wget all of #ubuntu.txt and grep yourself.  It's trivial.
20:34 <phunyguy> indeed.
20:34 <phunyguy> (I don't really know how the logs are set up, I just know what robots.txt is)
20:35 <Pricey> phunyguy: irclogs.ubuntu.com
20:35 <Pici> So, unless the CC has a different take on things, I think we're all in a agreement here
20:35 <AlanBell> it takes a while and is rather big (yes, I have wget'd quite a lot of it in the past)
20:35 <IdleOne> yeah, topic closed.
20:35 <AlanBell> yup, ok, thanks very much everyone, lets move on
20:35 <funkyHat> Yep
20:35 <AlanBell> #topic Membership applications
20:35 <AlanBell> we do have an application from phunyguy
20:36 * phunyguy flexes
20:36 <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phunyguy
20:36 <AlanBell> https://launchpad.net/~robtongue
20:36 <AlanBell> so, tell us about yourself phunyguy
20:36 <phunyguy> Well I had been an Ubuntu user for quute a few years, starting in 2007.
20:37 <phunyguy> Only found IRC a couple years back, and never left.
20:37 <phunyguy> (how in depth do I need to go?)
20:38 <phunyguy> Married, one kid, Systems Engineer at a local grocery chain...
20:38 <topyli> your wiki page has the story laid out pretty well
20:38 <IdleOne> IRCC May I ask a question of phunyguy ?
20:38 <topyli> sure
20:38 <IdleOne> phunyguy: Why do you want to be an Ubuntu member?
20:39 <funkyHat> For the shiny certificate, surely
20:39 <phunyguy> IdleOne: because I feel like I am a contributor, and I really like just about everyone in here.  Would make me feel a bit more like I am part of the team.
20:39 <phunyguy> (cheesy?)
20:39 <Fuchs> (yes)
20:39 <phunyguy> (sorry..)
20:40 <IdleOne> little bit, but honest.
20:40 <phunyguy> it's the truth though.
20:40 <phunyguy> probably brings some more respect, also, like me being there means something.
20:40 <phunyguy> I am trying to earn it, and this would help.
20:41 <IdleOne> So I don't have a vote here but I am +1 for approval. I think phunyguy is an asset to the community, especially in the offtopic channel.
20:41 <phunyguy> Also I know this doesn't go hand in hand, but I would like to start contributing as a chanop at some point, when I get a little better at catalyzing.
20:42 <Pricey> IdleOne: Is #ubuntu-offtopic really important for Ubuntu Membership through the IRC Team?
20:42 <AlanBell> so, looking at the wiki and launchpad page, I see some contributions to ubuntu in terms of bug comments and suchlike
20:42 <topyli> phunyguy: you chose to apply through the ircc instead of your local loco council. do you feel your contributions are mostly related to irc work?
20:42 <AlanBell> I would like to see some testimonials, I think that area is lacking
20:42 <phunyguy> topyli: yes, 90%
20:42 <IdleOne> Pricey: IMHO yes. The channel is not support oriented, but ubuntu isn't all about the tech stuff.
20:43 <phunyguy> I do go into #ubuntu when I can, and help. Have been for a couple years now.
20:43 <AlanBell> phunyguy: are you involved in your loco team at all?
20:43 <phunyguy> AlanBell: no. :( All IRC so far.
20:43 <phunyguy> I can change that...
20:44 <Fuchs> <comment>  I think it's a shame that there aren't any testimonials, I certainly would have written one. I agree with IdleOne on the -offtopic point, and I'd support phunyguys application </comment>
20:44 <Pici> It looks like there are at least a few people here that would be willing to provide testimonials.
20:45 <IdleOne> Pricey: the offtopic channel needs more good people who care about the CoC and the guidelines to help maintain the community
20:45 <topyli> i agree with the importance of -ot. my own membership is mostly due to -ot work :)
20:47 <IdleOne> IF it is necessary I'll copy paste what I said in here onto the wiki page, but I think the fact that I stayed awake for this meeting (usually my nap time) says something
20:48 <Pricey> (Are there even enough IRCC'ers here?)
20:49 <funkyHat> I think so
20:49 <Pricey> Whoops yes sorry, just spotted teh 3rd)
20:49 <AlanBell> #voters AlanBell Pici topyli funkyHat Tm_T
20:49 <meetingology> Current voters: AlanBell Pici Tm_T funkyHat topyli
20:49 <AlanBell> #vote membership application for phunyguy
20:49 <meetingology> Please vote on: membership application for phunyguy
20:49 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
20:50 <Pici> +0
20:50 <meetingology> +0 received from Pici
20:50 <AlanBell> +0 generally positive impression, but come back with testimonials, and maybe apply to be an op
20:50 <meetingology> +0 generally positive impression, but come back with testimonials, and maybe apply to be an op received from AlanBell
20:50 <Pricey> Grepping my logs I'm not sure I'd call #ubuntu activity consistent.
20:50 <Pici> I echo  what AlanBell said.  I can't really give an approval with no testimonials.
20:50 <topyli> -1 but definitely come back
20:50 <meetingology> -1 but definitely come back received from topyli
20:51 <Pici> Membership isn't a prerequesite for operator-ship (-hood?, thing?)
20:52 <phunyguy> I know.... Maybe I should do that first then.
20:52 <funkyHat> +0 likewise, but please do come back, and I agree that you should apply to be an op.
20:52 <meetingology> +0 likewise, but please do come back, and I agree that you should apply to be an op. received from funkyHat
20:52 <AlanBell> #endvote
20:52 <meetingology> Voting ended on: membership application for phunyguy
20:52 <meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:1 Abstentions:3
20:52 <meetingology> Motion denied
20:52 <topyli> awww i'm the bad guy
20:52 * Pici pats topyli
20:52 <phunyguy> naah, it's all good.  Thanks for the opportunity
20:52 <AlanBell> so not right now, phunyguy, sorry about that, but please do consider joining the operator team, you don't need to be an Ubuntu member to do that
20:52 <AlanBell> phunyguy: https://launchpad.net/~irc-ubuntu-offtopic-ops
20:52 <AlanBell> or one of the other channels
20:53 <phunyguy> I will do that.
20:53 <Pici> Many of us didn't become members until after being ops.
20:53 <Pici> Like Myrtti and I.
20:53 <IdleOne> same here
20:53 <Pici> and that IdleOne character.
20:53 <IdleOne> I was an op first
20:53 * phunyguy has never been an op anywhere
20:54 <IdleOne> good, you don't have bad habits from other places
20:54 <AlanBell> :)
20:54 <AlanBell> ok, lets move on
20:54 <Myrtti> let me send you a questionnaire, it assesses how mental case you are
20:54 <IdleOne> click that link.
20:54 <IdleOne> lol
20:54 <Pici> ;)
20:54 <funkyHat> hehehe
20:54 <AlanBell> #topic Any Other Business
20:54 <Myrtti> if you are, your qualifications match
20:54 <phunyguy> did, reading.
20:54 <AlanBell> any other things people want to discuss at this time?
20:55 <TheLordOfTime> one tiny thing, just a comment really
20:55 <Pici> sure
20:55 <TheLordOfTime> AlanBell, i'd like to give ikonia a public congrats on coordinating with the ZNC service I provide, in making sure that users who abuse the services in the Ubuntu channels are reported accordingly
20:55 <AlanBell> \o/
20:55 <TheLordOfTime> i know it's a tiny thing but ikonia's a very good "role model" of what a good channel op is.  :)
20:55 <IdleOne> yay for good processes and following them
20:56 <AlanBell> yeah, I noticed some of that coordination going on
20:56 <Pici> yay
20:56 <topyli> great
20:56 <TheLordOfTime> just wanted that to be on the public records.  :)
20:56 <AlanBell> and conversly, it is great to have someone who provides a ZNC service working well with our team too
20:56 <TheLordOfTime> AlanBell, that's what ikonia said!  :D
20:56 <Pici> Agreed.
20:57 <IdleOne> kinda doesn't have a choice seeing how TheLordOfTime is an ubuntu member :P
20:57 <AlanBell> :)
20:57 <AlanBell> ok, any other other busines?
20:57 <IdleOne> but we appreciate the service and the help you give us when we have issues
20:57 <Pici> I have nothing.
20:57 <TheLordOfTime> thanks, IdleOne :)
20:57 <phunyguy> Thanks everyone.
20:57 <AlanBell> #endmeeting