19:00:55 #startmeeting 19:00:55 Meeting started Mon Apr 22 19:00:55 2013 UTC. The chair is bdrung. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 19:00:55 19:00:55 Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired 19:01:10 #topic Review of previous action items 19:01:16 \o 19:01:31 hi 19:02:28 stgraber, barry, and laney said via mail that they (probably) won't attend the meeting 19:03:23 But we have their votes on the applications. 19:03:38 Short version of the action items is no change, nothing done. 19:04:24 i will do the summary of sweetshark's recent sponsorship as soon as possible. 19:05:14 we can discuss the review separation of PPU from membership at the end of the meeting if time permits 19:05:41 #topic PerPackageUploader Application: Sebastian Heinlein 19:06:04 I'm ready to vote. 19:06:26 glatzor doesn't seem to be online 19:06:44 * micahg-work has questions 19:08:14 * tumbleweed would be interested in chatting with the applicant, but I'm fairly sure I know how I'd vote 19:08:32 let skip him for now 19:08:54 #topic PerPackageUploader Application: Gunnar Hjalmarsson 19:09:04 Good evening, DMB! 19:09:09 #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GunnarHj/PerPackageUploaderApplication 19:09:25 GunnarHj: hi. can you introduce yourself? 19:09:34 I started with Ubuntu in 2010, and instantly noticed that I wasn't able to (easily) set languages and regional formats to my liking. Noticed bug 553162, and started to work on it. Seems like I got stuck with this problem area. ;-) 19:09:35 bug 553162 in gdm (Ubuntu) "Set $LANGUAGE if the user picks a different locale in gdm, so that language-selector and gdm stop disagreeing" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/553162 19:09:36 I'm an i18n bug fixer, and you may want to consider me an i18n watchdog, since I tend to jump at bugs in many different packages as soon I smell a problem with respect to language and locale handling etc. 19:09:37 I'm ready to vote. 19:09:38 language-selector and accountsservice are the packages I most often come back to, and I know quite well by now what they do. 19:09:40 I have a question: If you would accept my application, would it make me an ubuntu-dev member, or would that be a separate application? (It would be nice to be able to post to the ubuntu-devel list without moderation.) 19:10:27 you'd be an ubuntu-dev member (as things stand right now) 19:10:44 tumbleweed: Great, thanks. 19:11:13 well, I think we'd fix the moderation if we change the base dev group, but we can discuss that later 19:11:46 I'm already an ubuntu-member and bug control member. 19:13:02 GunnarHj, have you collaborated with Debian at all WRT any of the i18n stuff and specifically accountservice since that's what you're seeking upload rights for 19:13:47 *accountsservice 19:14:05 With Debian, yes absolutely, but not with respect to accountsservice since my interest there is Ubuntu specific stuff only. 19:14:44 Not sold to Debian, at least not yet. :) 19:17:09 GunnarHj, the changes you're making only affect Ubuntu, not Debian? 19:17:25 micahg-work: Yes. 19:17:51 and I guess those get pushed straight upstream then? 19:18:48 micahg-work: Yes, but they are patches that Debian does not apply (at least that's my understanding). 19:19:53 GunnarHj: are there any intentions to get the patches upstream? the latest package version contains 15 patches. 19:21:19 bdrung: The most obvious one I tried to get upstream yet another level, but nothing has happened so far. GNOME seems not very interested in ideas from other distros... 19:23:05 GunnarHj, FTR, alessio is usually fine with Ubuntu specific patches being forwarded to Debian (might make the maintenance burden easier) 19:23:12 GunnarHj: did you get no response or was the patch rejected? 19:23:40 bdrung: Neither. Response, then silence. 19:24:15 micahg-work: I'll take your tip and try to do something about Debian. 19:24:46 GunnarHj, he might even be up for a co-maintainer 19:24:49 sometimes you need to poke upstream more than once and sometimes improving the patch is required to get it accepted. 19:25:00 micahg-work: Ok. 19:25:07 GunnarHj, maybe desrt can help you get the patches upstream (I see him in the commit log) 19:25:48 getting patches as upstream as possible reduces the maintenance burden. 19:25:53 GunnarHj, are you familiar with the various freezes and exception processes? 19:26:29 Please note that the Ubuntu patches in accountsservice presuppose a different approach to part of language locale handling in general. It's a little complicated... 19:26:51 micahg-work: Yes. Know them quite well by now. 19:28:36 GunnarHj, sure, we just like to encourage applicants to collaborate with upstreams where possible to reduce the maintenance burden over time 19:29:10 GunnarHj, are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce? 19:29:21 micahg-work: I fully understand and agree on the goal to reduce the maintenance burden. 19:29:41 I'm subscribed to -announce. 19:32:39 GunnarHj: you stated that you dislike the amount of bugs. I agree with you there. Do you have any other idea than throwing more man power at fixing bugs? 19:33:29 there are initiatives like DEP-8 and automated testing that seem to aim in the right direction. 19:33:35 bdrung: Well, that would be to test more carefully before uploading, I suppose. ;-) 19:33:38 FTR, I think most of the bugs are really upstream bugs, there are too many, but no software is perfect 19:34:34 unfortunately, I think bug control membership has been about the same since I joined about 4 years ago, that certainly doesn't help 19:34:38 Agree that the automated testing initiative sounds good. 19:35:14 Haven't involved myself in it yet, though. 19:35:28 at least bugs lead to people joining the developer teams. take GunnarHj or me as example. ;) 19:35:44 Indeed. :) 19:36:58 let's vote 19:37:46 #vote Should Gunnar Hjalmarsson get upload rights for language-selector and accountsservice? 19:37:46 Please vote on: Should Gunnar Hjalmarsson get upload rights for language-selector and accountsservice? 19:37:46 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 19:37:54 +1 19:37:54 +1 received from micahg-work 19:38:00 +1 19:38:00 +1 received from tumbleweed 19:38:01 +1 19:38:01 +1 received from bdrung 19:38:34 +1 19:38:34 +1 received from ScottK 19:38:42 +3 from mail too. 19:39:02 #endvote 19:39:02 Voting ended on: Should Gunnar Hjalmarsson get upload rights for language-selector and accountsservice? 19:39:02 Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 19:39:02 Motion carried 19:39:15 GunnarHj: congrats. 19:39:24 Can we go over glaztor's application now like we would for an email vote? 19:39:34 Thanks guys! Won't misuse my new access rights. :) 19:39:35 (there's no actual requirement the person be present) 19:39:51 no, since I have questions for the applicant 19:40:04 #topic PerPackageUploader Application: Sebastian Heinlein 19:40:08 well, I shouldn't say no, but I have questions for the applicant :) 19:40:30 micahg-work: He's already +4, so why block the application? 19:40:46 ScottK: we used to have the application on the meeting to ask questions 19:40:49 Nothing says you can't ask questions anyway. 19:41:34 Yes and so we'll defer it two week, he'll get at least +4 next time and take up an application slot that maybe someone else would use. 19:41:36 but what does asking question bring if you don't get an answer? 19:42:05 ScottK, depending on the answers, people can change their minds... 19:42:29 and the vote needs +4 total, not just 4 +1s... 19:42:30 Then we need to document that a meeting is required and votes can't be done over email. 19:42:44 Right, but is anyone considering -1? 19:42:53 I could image a +0, but really. 19:43:03 micahg-work: can we move the application to email? 19:43:08 email votes are at the discretion of the DMB 19:43:26 bdrung, I suppose, should I send my questions by E-Mail? 19:43:27 If we can do it on email, why can't we do it right now? 19:43:50 ScottK: a meeting is normally required, but we can do it over email for special cases. 19:44:09 bdrung, is there a pressing need that it can't wait 2 weeks? we usually do e-mail when it's difficult for an applicant to attend a meeting 19:44:34 There's never a pressing need and things keep getting kicked down the road. 19:44:49 Look at the impressive DMB progress on open actions in the last two weeks. 19:45:28 * bdrung promises improving on processing action items. 19:46:47 I like to talk to glatzor on IRC before voting to hear his answers to micahg's question and to ask him questions. 19:47:57 OK. Looks like a victory for process over substance, but that's what some people think is important. 19:48:01 there are no applications for the next meeting and therefore I see no pressing need for moving the application to email. 19:49:15 Will someone take the action to email glatzor and tell him we decided to wait two weeks. 19:49:48 I propose to ask glatzor if he is fine with attending the next meeting or if he want to be asked via email to avoid the waiting time. 19:50:16 Sounds good. Will you do it? 19:50:55 okay, i will to it as part of the chair's duties. 19:52:07 #topic Any other business 19:52:22 meeting time change for 14:00? 19:52:57 What about PPU/membership? 19:53:02 I thought that was on the agenda? 19:53:17 micahg-work: Who asked for it to be changed? 19:53:19 I did 19:53:26 let's discuss the time change before PPU/membership. 19:53:33 Oh. 19:53:35 we took a poll, 15:00 UTC Mon seemed to be fine 19:53:44 unanimous in fact 19:53:46 It's fine for me. 19:53:59 13:00 was also on the poll, but I forgot I had a previous commitment 19:54:40 so, barring any objections, can we announce the new time for the early meeting? 19:54:45 IIRC there was a question about using UTC or DST. 19:54:49 ah, right 19:55:12 I'm not sure we settled that one, 15:00 UTC in the winter would be problematic right now 19:55:19 did we come to a conclusion there? 19:56:27 I'd prefer 16:00 london time if I had a choice 19:56:53 that should work for me year round... 19:57:44 but that moves the winter meeting 2 hours ahead of where it was 19:57:49 so 16:00 and 21:00 London time? when do they switch the time? 19:58:15 hrm, that's the other problem I guess, US switches earlier/later than London 19:58:34 We switch at the last Sunday in March/October in Germany IIRC. 19:58:37 it's easier for me to remember UTC...but it's only 4 weeks out of the year that it's off 19:59:16 same in London as Germany 20:01:48 I'd suggest we either decide based on poll results or go back to the list since we're short three people. 20:02:04 Personally, I'm flexible. 20:02:08 let's sum it up 20:04:16 15:00 UTC works for now, need to decide if we're switching to GMT or keeping UTC 20:04:24 The proposal is to move to 15:00 / 20:00 UTC in the Summer (from the last Sunday in March till October) and to 14:00 / 19:00 UTC in Winter (from the last Sunday in October til March) 20:05:06 I'd prefer 16:00/21:00 for the winter 20:05:40 * bdrung is confused with time zones. 20:05:48 BTW, the 19:00 meeting is fine for me ATM, unless there's a desire to keep 5 hours between meetings 20:08:21 The proposal is to move to 15:00 / 19:00 UTC in the Summer (from the last Sunday in March till October) and to 16:00 / 20:00 UTC in Winter (from the last Sunday in October til March) 20:08:44 micahg-work: i calculated the times wrongly. i didn't want to the the late meeting. 20:09:00 seems fine 20:09:06 should we do a list vote? 20:09:12 yes 20:09:35 bdrung, I can take an action item to call for the vote 20:09:55 I can also take an action item to poke about PPU/membership decoupling 20:10:31 unless ScottK wants the seocnd one 20:10:32 #action micahg to call for votes for the new meeting times 20:10:32 * meetingology micahg to call for votes for the new meeting times 20:11:12 Don't we have a proposal we can vote on for the PPU thing? 20:11:20 should we move the next meeting from 14:00 UTC to 15:00 UTC? 20:11:39 ScottK, ISTR there being some disagreement on a few points still 20:12:00 bdrung, I would prefer to move the meeting, yes (especially since the poll results were unanimous) 20:12:01 micahg-work: Give me a link to your last proposal and I'll take the action. 20:12:02 (before getting a consensus on changing the schedule?) 20:12:25 ScottK, ok, I'll have to do that when I get home, there should be a thread on the DMB list 20:12:32 OK 20:13:03 #action bdrung to change the meeting time for the next meeting from 14:00 UTC to 15:00 UTC 20:13:03 * meetingology bdrung to change the meeting time for the next meeting from 14:00 UTC to 15:00 UTC 20:13:09 bdrung, yes, I think the UTC/GMT question is separate 20:13:37 I didn't see any conflicts on the fridge when I checked either 20:14:10 #topic Decoupling PPU rights from Ubuntu membership 20:15:33 micahg-work sent a mail with the subject "Proposal to decouple PPU from Membership" to d-m-b@ 20:16:26 bdrung, we've done that already, "micahg to give ScottK link to proposal and ScottK to move it forward" 20:17:09 I found it. 20:17:50 Having the subject line helps. 20:17:55 we need to vote on it and then? 20:17:56 I'll write a mail to the list. 20:18:19 micahg-work wanted to argue the color of the bike shed some more. 20:18:29 Let me review and mail the list and we'll have a mail vote. 20:18:41 Something that important I think everyone should vote on anyway. 20:18:47 it needs a nice floral pattern! 20:20:03 #action ScottK to call for votes on the decoupling PPU rights from Ubuntu membership proposal 20:20:03 * meetingology ScottK to call for votes on the decoupling PPU rights from Ubuntu membership proposal 20:22:47 next chair will be Laney 20:22:52 thanks for attending. 20:22:57 #endmeeting