17:00:28 <pleia2> #startmeeting
17:00:28 <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Apr  4 17:00:28 2013 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
17:00:28 <meetingology> 
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17:00:35 <pleia2> #chair Gwaihir beuno
17:00:35 <meetingology> Current chairs: Gwaihir beuno pleia2
17:00:51 <smartboyhw> o/
17:00:56 <pleia2> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
17:01:43 <pleia2> the only scheduled agenda item is the catch-up with the kubuntu council folks
17:02:03 <smartboyhw> I pinged them already
17:02:25 <Riddell> hi
17:02:38 <pleia2> #topic Kubuntu Council catch-up
17:03:36 <beuno> hi all
17:03:45 <pleia2> so during these catch-ups we pretty much just ask for the team to share with us status and thoughts about their project and team
17:03:52 <pleia2> see if there are any blockers the CC can assist with
17:04:30 <pleia2> anyone is welcome to start :) or we can wait a couple minutes for some others to join us
17:04:57 <smartboyhw> Riddell: kick the rollercoaster:)
17:05:17 <Riddell> hmm
17:05:44 <Riddell> there's been a notable tendancy by canonical recently to take significant decisions
17:05:58 <Riddell> dropping UDS then organising a replacement vUDS at a week's notice was very bad community management
17:06:07 <beuno> indeed
17:06:15 * pleia2 nods
17:06:16 <smartboyhw> +1
17:06:45 * smartboyhw remembers writing angry blogposts about tht
17:07:04 <Riddell> announcing a change from X to an internal project they've been working on for some time was very badly handled
17:07:44 <pleia2> I've been working with Jono and Rick on some of these things to see how we can improve communication community-wide, are there ways these things impacted Kubuntu that we should know about specifically?
17:07:48 <Riddell> some nice friends of mine in KDE have put a lot of time into making lightdm work with kde assuming it'll work with wayland and now will have to do all that work himself, he could have been told long ago
17:07:58 * pleia2 nods
17:08:25 <pleia2> thanks, having specific examples helps us a lot
17:08:37 <Riddell> and it's just really worrying technically, who knows how Mir will clash with KWin and Plasma, it won't be easy I'm sure
17:09:34 <beuno> Riddell, so you're worried that making a KDE flavor is going to be increasingly harder?
17:09:39 <Riddell> yes
17:10:48 <Riddell> the dates for the next vUDS haven't been announced, but something has been added to the S release schedule which shows a different date from what everyone was expecting
17:10:53 <smartboyhw_> What did I niss?
17:11:24 <maco> smartboyhw_: we dont know what the last you saw was
17:11:34 <maco> (never disconnected)
17:11:45 <smartboyhw_> Riddel talking about KWin
17:12:02 <Riddell> the website continues to be a pinch point, we have some people wanting to translate it into various languages and do need a database dump but that ticket has gone unanswered by the sysadmins
17:12:10 <maco> smartboyhw_: thats it
17:12:18 <smartboyhw_> good
17:12:25 <Riddell> I'd like to just move the website to our own sever since the sysadmins have a history of being very unresponsive
17:13:02 <smartboyhw_> Riddell: +1
17:13:13 <Riddell> but I've no idea if that will be allowed
17:13:44 <beuno> Riddell, I'm sure that can be discussed. I'd bet Canonical would still own the domain, but delegate DNS
17:14:33 <beuno> and we can certainly chase up those dates for an announcement
17:14:59 <beuno> Riddell, to some extent, I think there's going to be a lot of core focus shifting to the phone and tablet
17:15:20 <beuno> so there's going to be less focus on all the desktops, for a little while
17:15:58 <Riddell> dropping UDS was obviously done as a cost saving measure but it was spun as helping "transparency", that grates, honesty works best
17:16:03 <maco> lde has had a tablet ui for years
17:16:08 <maco> *kde
17:16:25 * maco 1-hand type w/ food in other hand
17:16:57 <Riddell> wanting to drop 6 monthly releases was obviously discussed internally to canonical long before it got presented to the outside world, I'm not sure why there's a need to keep things hidden
17:17:07 <beuno> so
17:17:26 <beuno> I don't think the primary goal of dropping in-person UDS was cost-savings
17:17:28 <Quintasan> \o
17:17:34 <beuno> they were getting less and less useful
17:17:42 <beuno> they could of just made them smaller
17:17:44 <Riddell> and changing the name releaeses to "interim releases" also grates
17:17:46 <beuno> at a fraction of the cost
17:18:01 <beuno> making them virtual solves a lot of problems
17:18:20 <beuno> it gives them more transparency, opens up for more participation and we can do them more often
17:18:29 <beuno> which maps better to the current engineering pace
17:18:38 <smartboyhw> beuno: And causes some more problems
17:18:48 <beuno> sure, nothing's free  :)
17:19:08 <Riddell> our engineering pace is 6 monthly - Mark spent a lot of time lobbying KDE to do 6 monthly releases
17:19:20 * beuno nods
17:19:40 <pleia2> I just confirned that vUDS will be May 14-16 http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1305/
17:19:49 <pleia2> (thanks mhall119)
17:20:05 <pleia2> hasn't been announced as such, so we can nudge them about that too
17:21:13 <Riddell> the ubuntu download page takes donations with an option for "better support for kubuntu", although canonical still puts in significant resources to kubuntu there is no indication that donations on that page go to "better support for kubuntu"
17:21:55 <beuno> Riddell, as for internal discussions about speeding up development, they were done to first understand the impact on the internal engineering teams, and be able to come up with a decent proposal
17:22:11 <beuno> which I think is actually reasonable
17:22:14 <mhall119> pleia2: yeah, we just got confirmation yesterday, and jono's been sick, hence no announcement yet
17:22:14 <beuno> and very non-evil
17:23:11 <smartboyhw> beuno: I do think they should have tell us earlier though.
17:23:32 <beuno> smartboyhw, earliear than what?
17:24:03 <smartboyhw> beuno: midway through the internal discussiom
17:24:06 <beuno> as far as I can tell, there's like a 30 day gap between serious internal discussions and kicking off the public one
17:24:23 <beuno> smartboyhw, that's arbitrary and flaimbait  ;)
17:24:25 <smartboyhw> They should hold a "consultation" thing
17:24:36 <beuno> klook
17:24:42 <beuno> the kick off email wasn't great
17:24:50 <beuno> it really was't
17:24:52 <pleia2> and looking back, it does seem that the community discussion was effective, a lot of great points were brought up, it was a real discussion and the tech board ruled accordingly
17:24:53 <beuno> wasn't
17:25:07 <beuno> but, it was a genuine discussion
17:25:15 <beuno> and the tech board decided
17:25:22 <beuno> that's the community process working
17:25:34 <beuno> I can relate to the bitter feeling on how it got kicked off
17:25:50 <beuno> but reality is that in the end it went through the right process
17:25:55 <smartboyhw> I do think that "support" thing is much more strange than the release process proposal
17:26:09 <pleia2> yeah, initially it didn't feel like a conversation, but I think it turned out ok
17:26:36 <pleia2> so I think everything brought up here are things we've been working on and understand
17:26:53 <Riddell> pleia2: the donations?
17:27:02 <pleia2> Riddell: jono is looking into where they actually go
17:27:03 <beuno> Riddell, we can certainly check up on what the situation is for the kubuntu donations. My guess would be that it barely covers servers and bandwidth
17:27:18 <beuno> but some more transparency there may help
17:27:20 <Darkwing> Sorry, I'm late
17:27:33 <pleia2> I assumed it was for release team working with the flavors, spinning up isos, QA time and infrastructure and hosting
17:27:34 <smartboyhw> Darkwing :)
17:27:48 <Riddell> beuno: those are paid for anyway, the donations are for "better support"
17:28:04 <Riddell> pleia2: ^^
17:28:18 <beuno> Riddell, well, paid for, the money comes from somewhere, right?
17:28:18 <pleia2> right, that's why he's looking into it for us
17:28:25 <mhall119> Riddell: does the Kubuntu community have any recommendations as to what "better support" they would like to see?
17:28:35 <Riddell> if they want to take donations for what they already provide then call it "continued support"
17:28:45 <beuno> but we should be able to understand what the situation is
17:28:49 <pleia2> (to be honest, it's odd to me that people would donate to a company at all, but here we are :))
17:29:02 <mhall119> Canonical is an unusual kind of company :)
17:29:12 <pleia2> I like tax write-offs!
17:29:20 <Riddell> mhall119: sysadmins who are responsive?  a dedicated release manager?
17:29:33 <pleia2> Riddell: dedicated for flavors?
17:29:46 <pleia2> or bringing back a dedicated one for everything?
17:29:54 <smartboyhw> Riddell we have that for Ubunru Studio (me)
17:29:58 <maco> Riddell: i suppose if it meant directing more people to dedicate more of their QA and whatnot hours to kubuntu testing...?
17:30:07 <mhall119> Riddell: can you send jono an email with those requests/recommendations?
17:30:07 <Riddell> flavours are everything, I consider the flagship Ubuntu as much a flavour as anything else
17:30:11 <smartboyhw> pleia2: Bring back skaet:)
17:30:19 <beuno> right, most of those things are a lot of money
17:30:27 <Riddell> maco: that would be good
17:30:29 <beuno> we should understand what the donation range is like first
17:30:56 <Riddell> mhall119: it's too low down my priority list for that I'm afraid
17:31:22 <pleia2> can someone else on the team do it?
17:31:40 <pleia2> I honestly don't know what the kubuntu team expects from these donations, so a list would be super helpful
17:31:49 <mhall119> +1
17:31:55 <Riddell> my preferred solution would be just to transfer it to our bank account
17:32:33 <pleia2> since it's for all the flavors and most don't have bank accounts, I don't think that's a very practical solution
17:32:58 <pleia2> and there are clearly internal things canonical can do to improve things (if you'd tell us what they are)
17:34:17 <smartboyhw> pleia2: I do remember Scott Lavender + knome (maybe + zequence) has talked about some flavour team
17:34:26 <smartboyhw> Which manages all flavours
17:34:31 <Darkwing> I think what we are looking for is, when someone donated to kubuntu, what happens? is it grouped into a flavors list or, does Canonical take it?
17:34:40 <pleia2> but as beuno said, we'll try to work with jono to see how much money we're talking about and nail down where it's going and what the intention was
17:34:56 <Darkwing> We tried that a couple weeks ago
17:35:05 <pleia2> it was certainly a surprise to all of us that it was on the list of donation options without any clear explaining of what they meant
17:35:32 <pleia2> Darkwing: right, that's why you're bringing it to the CC now, so we can help you :)
17:36:11 <Riddell> groovy, I think that's all from me and I need to run off for something non-computery
17:36:17 <Darkwing> :) uh huh. You asked for a list of what we were looking for. While we might be different from other flavors in that we have a bank account, we would like to manage our donations.
17:36:17 <pleia2> thanks Riddell!
17:36:40 <pleia2> Darkwing: can you prepare a list?
17:36:44 <pleia2> or is it just "cash"?
17:37:15 <Darkwing> A list of how much was donated or?...
17:37:18 <pleia2> I think a list of internal ways Canonical an improve flavor support would be a much more effective approach for everyone
17:37:20 <smartboyhw> pleia2 maybe just
17:37:26 <smartboyhw> cash
17:37:34 <pleia2> Darkwing: a list of things you'd like to see Canonical do to improve support
17:37:39 <pleia2> smartboyhw: I think that's very unlikely
17:37:45 <mhall119> cash would be hard, since you'd have to say "Kubuntu gets x% of the donated money"
17:37:48 <smartboyhw> However I think the donation amount is very small
17:37:58 <Darkwing> I think the cash that was donated in Kubuntu's name.
17:38:03 <pleia2> smartboyhw: most of the flavors can't accept it
17:38:15 <mhall119> I don't think it tracks specific flavors, just flavor support in general
17:38:24 <smartboyhw> Actually who here has touched that page and donated something?
17:38:25 <Darkwing> As for support, I think most everyone is not happy witht eh quickness that sysadmins move.
17:38:42 <pleia2> Darkwing: the text is "Better support for flavours like Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu" - it doesn't specify
17:38:45 <smartboyhw> Darkwing: +10000
17:38:47 <Darkwing> mhall119: That's part of the questions... How is that money delt with
17:39:06 <Darkwing> I would like to know what that was going for.
17:39:20 <pleia2> Darkwing: if you get a ticket that's stuck in RT and they haven't been able to help on IRC, you can always forward it to us to look into (we helped the forums folks get things pushed along last year)
17:39:24 <mhall119> Darkwing: agreed, jono is already looking into getting that information
17:39:44 <Darkwing> mhall119: I know, he said that a couple weeks ago.
17:39:44 <pleia2> Darkwing: right, this is all what I said we're working with jono on :)
17:39:57 <mhall119> Darkwing: also remember the community team, looking after you guys and making sure you get the best support from Canonical we can provide is part of our jobs
17:40:00 <Darkwing> Okay, Then I'll sit back and wait some more.
17:40:13 <Darkwing> :) I know.
17:40:21 <mhall119> you can ping me any time
17:40:30 <pleia2> thanks mhall119 :)
17:40:34 <mhall119> :)
17:40:35 <Darkwing> Thanks mhall119 and pleia2
17:41:05 <pleia2> so, how's Kubuntu aside from Canonical issues? :)
17:41:10 <pleia2> gonna be awesome for 13.04? :D
17:41:18 <Darkwing> It's always awesome :P
17:41:24 <pleia2> great!
17:41:24 <smartboyhw> Great!!!
17:41:38 <Darkwing> We are in the middle of some council elections right now.
17:42:11 <smartboyhw> three of the seats are to be elected
17:42:13 <pleia2> ok, just let us know if you need help (I seem to recall we've helped set up polls in the past)
17:42:18 <smartboyhw> 4 are running
17:42:39 <Darkwing> ScottK is running it so, I doubt we'll have an issue with a poll but, we'll let you know
17:42:47 <pleia2> ok great
17:43:03 <Darkwing> Is there anything you guys need from us?
17:43:20 <smartboyhw> Darkwing…
17:43:28 <Darkwing> Yes smartboyhw
17:43:42 <smartboyhw> I thought it will be pleia2 asking this
17:43:44 <smartboyhw> :p
17:43:55 <pleia2> Darkwing: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Restaffing might be worth a review
17:44:18 <pleia2> just some tips to make the process smoother
17:44:41 <Darkwing> pleia2: I'll pass it on to Scott
17:44:41 <pleia2> smartboyhw: everyone is welcome to ask questions of each other at these meetings
17:44:54 <Darkwing> Does the CC need anything from teh KC?
17:45:01 <Darkwing> *the
17:45:01 <smartboyhw> yep
17:45:16 <smartboyhw> Indeed I am going to ask sth later
17:46:02 <pleia2> Darkwing: last time Riddell sent the list to the CC, we approved and sent it back for a vote of the community
17:46:27 <pleia2> (historically we've never vetoed anyone)
17:46:27 * Darkwing raises an eyebrow
17:46:35 <pleia2> then Mark set up the poll
17:46:52 <pleia2> this is how all the councils work
17:46:53 <Darkwing> Okay, I think we are using teh CIVwhatever poll
17:46:58 <Darkwing> But, I'll pass that on.
17:47:18 <pleia2> yep, that's what we used for the 2010 elections
17:47:36 <smartboyhw> pleia2: Currently it is David Wonderly (darkwing) Philip Muscovac (yofel) Rohan Garg (shadeslayer) and one more (forgotten)
17:47:55 <Darkwing> smartboyhw: I'll pull it together in an email :)
17:48:08 <Darkwing> But, Valorie Zimmerman is the 4th so far
17:48:18 <pleia2> (of course this process is always up for discussion if people are concerned, it's just how it's always been done)
17:48:37 <smartboyhw> Darkwing ah yeah I forgotten her:(
17:48:39 <pleia2> anything else?
17:48:49 <Darkwing> Not from our end that I know of.
17:48:59 <pleia2> great, thanks for coming Darkwing :)
17:49:16 <pleia2> #topic Any other business
17:49:16 <Darkwing> Sorry I was late.
17:49:24 <smartboyhw> o/
17:49:24 <beuno> sorry, got called off
17:50:26 <pleia2> anything else for this meeting?
17:50:34 <smartboyhw> Er aren't o/ the syntax in asking questions?
17:50:54 <smartboyhw> o/
17:50:55 <beuno> smartboyhw, maybe. What's up?
17:51:28 <pleia2> smartboyhw: you can just ask questions :)
17:51:34 <smartboyhw> Just asking, is tmr the deadline for Regional Membership Board applications?
17:52:01 <smartboyhw> pleia2, got used to it.
17:52:15 <pleia2> smartboyhw: yes
17:52:24 <smartboyhw> How many people are running?
17:52:32 <pleia2> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2013/03/22/ubuntu-membership-board-call-for-nominations/
17:52:37 <pleia2> has all the details
17:52:52 <smartboyhw> I know, I sent in mine:)
17:53:09 <pleia2> ok, that also lists how many seats are open, and the deadline
17:53:37 <smartboyhw> How maby people are running for this?
17:53:44 <pleia2> We’re looking for 5 Ubuntu Members who can participate in the 12:00 UTC meetings:
17:53:47 <pleia2> And for 4 Members who can participate in the 22:00 meetings:
17:53:49 <smartboyhw> s/maby/many/
17:53:49 <cprofitt> it was 9 total seats right?
17:53:57 <pleia2> so yes, 9 seats total
17:54:01 <smartboyhw> cprofitt: Yeah
17:54:22 <cprofitt> end of nominations is tomorrow
17:54:35 <hggdh> at 1200 UTC
17:54:40 <pleia2> we don't know how many people have applied if that's what you're asking, all nominations are being collected by the board, they will send them to us at 1200 tomorrow
17:54:49 <smartboyhw> Oh.
17:55:17 <pleia2> you sent your nomination to the board, right?
17:55:20 <smartboyhw> Also another question: Why isn't the CC's mailing lists open to public when TB does?
17:55:23 <pleia2> that was in the instructions
17:55:27 <smartboyhw> pleia2: yep
17:55:50 <pleia2> smartboyhw: because we have to deal with private disputes between individuals and teams
17:55:51 <smartboyhw> I mean the archive (for the mail list question)
17:55:54 <pleia2> those can't really be public
17:56:15 <smartboyhw> pleia2: And why wouldnt TB?
17:56:28 <pleia2> because they control technical direction, we handle private disputes
17:56:35 <Darkwing> I did have a question pertaining to Ubuntu :)
17:56:53 <smartboyhw> Darkwing: Just ask.
17:56:56 <smartboyhw> ;P
17:56:56 <pleia2> for technical direction it's helpful to have input from the whole technical community, for private disputes we need to just dicuss it with folks involved
17:57:20 <pleia2> people need to know they have a safe space to bring up concerns, etc
17:57:37 <Darkwing> One thing I've had a few people here in Indiana ask is with teh Ubuntu Chinese version, is Ubuntu/Canonical going to work with the China Government on censorship software for the OS rolling out there? I had no idea what to tell them.
17:57:52 <smartboyhw> Darkwing: LOL
17:58:11 <pleia2> Darkwing: not a clue
17:58:13 <cprofitt> Darkwing: do we even know that there is censorship software in their OS?
17:58:16 <smartboyhw> Ask in #ubuntukylin-meeting, the project lead (JackYu) is there
17:58:26 <beuno> Darkwing, no, there's no plans on Canonical working on censorship software
17:58:26 <pleia2> Darkwing: since the deal is between the chinese government and canonical, you probably have to ask canonical
17:58:37 <Darkwing> Hey, I've been asked by about a dozen people... :)
17:58:37 <beuno> they Chinese govt, however, will do whatever they like
17:58:46 <Darkwing> beuno: Okay thanks.
17:58:53 <beuno> I don't think they have the intention of adding something like that into an open source OS
17:59:08 <beuno> they'll probably rely on their existing infrastructure for whatever they want to do
17:59:18 <cprofitt> beuno: that would have been my guess
17:59:29 <beuno> (why censor on an OS level when you can censor on the network level?)
17:59:40 <smartboyhw> lol
17:59:40 <Darkwing> I think it was more of a question of what Canonical was doing... I don't know if it was a trap or a poor attempt of one but, Now I have an answere
18:00:08 * Darkwing departs to figure out how he broke his system
18:00:49 <pleia2> ok, hit the hour mark, we'll wrap this up then :)
18:00:51 <pleia2> thanks everyone
18:00:54 <pleia2> #endmeeting