#title #ubuntu-meeting Meeting Meeting started by micahg at 19:03:45 UTC. The full logs are available at http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-25-19.03.log.html . == Meeting summary == *review previous action items *Micah to announce the poll results (micahg, 19:04:43) *Iain to do the paperwork for the kernel PPU team delegation (micahg, 19:05:04) *MOTU Applications ''LINK:'' https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AllisonRandal/MOTU (micahg, 19:06:00) ''LINK:'' https://merges.ubuntu.com/universe-now.png (micahg, 19:21:38) *Logan Rosen's MOTU application (micahg, 19:39:16) ''LINK:'' https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoganRosen/MOTUApplication (micahg, 19:39:23) ''LINK:'' http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~stefanor/ubuntu-neglected-packages/ (micahg, 20:23:35) *Review of previous action items *Iain to do the paperwork for the kernel PPU team delegation (micahg, 20:29:00) *AOB *Decouple PPU from Ubuntu membership (what needs to be done?) (micahg, 20:32:42) ''LINK:'' https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-dev/+participation (tumbleweed, 20:43:04) ''LINK:'' http://paste.ubuntu.com/5565892/ ? (tumbleweed, 20:52:00) ''ACTION:'' micahg to write up proposal for new team structure and send to DMB list (micahg, 21:16:02) Meeting ended at 21:21:11 UTC. == Votes == * Please vote on Logan Rosen becoming MOTU For: 6 Against: 0 Abstained: 0 * Please vote on Allison Randal (wendar) becoming MOTU For: 5 Against: 0 Abstained: 1 == Action items == * micahg to write up proposal for new team structure and send to DMB list == Action items, by person == * micahg ** micahg to write up proposal for new team structure and send to DMB list == People present (lines said) == * micahg (102) * tumbleweed (65) * stgraber (49) * Logan_ (44) * ScottK (41) * wendar (40) * bdrung (27) * meetingology (27) * barry (10) * pleia2 (3) * ubottu (1) * Laney (0) == Full Log == 19:03:45 #startmeeting 19:03:45 Meeting started Mon Feb 25 19:03:45 2013 UTC. The chair is micahg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 19:03:45 19:03:45 Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired 19:04:00 welcome to the DMB fortnightly meeting 19:04:06 * stgraber waves 19:04:13 Hey. :) 19:04:34 #topic review previous action items 19:04:43 #subtopic Micah to announce the poll results 19:04:50 not yet, will do after the meeting 19:05:04 #subtopic Iain to do the paperwork for the kernel PPU team delegation 19:05:19 as Laney is absent, we'll carry this forward as I don't see anything for it yet 19:05:36 #topic MOTU Applications 19:05:50 first up, wendar 19:05:57 hi 19:06:00 #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AllisonRandal/MOTU 19:06:06 \o 19:06:13 wendar: please introduce yourself 19:06:22 dmb ping needs to be updated 19:06:33 ScottK: ubottu was offline :) 19:08:18 Not sure what to put in an introduction. I'll go with: Hi, I'm Allison Randal, I've been involved in Ubuntu in various ways since 2005. 19:09:04 I am an upstream developer on the Parrot project, so have always paid close attention to those packages. 19:09:47 But, mostly see Ubuntu as an integrated whole system. (And from that perspective, parrot plays a very small part.) 19:10:36 My packaging work is often in the area of battling complicated failures in C or Perl packages. 19:10:44 With a few Python packages mixed in. 19:11:00 I mostly avoid Java. :) 19:11:23 end-of-intro 19:11:28 wendar: hi, yeah, just been looking through some of your recent uploads 19:11:37 and https://launchpadlibrarian.net/87347747/syncmaildir_1.2.2-1_1.2.2-1ubuntu1.diff.gz caught my eye 19:11:56 was that forwarded upstream? it's useful to add DEP-3 headers indicating things like that 19:12:24 I see the upstream is essentially the debian maintainer, but I see no bug in the BTS 19:13:25 That was a while ago now, so I don't actually remember if I forwarded that one upstream. 19:13:35 Most of the fixes I made that month I did push up to Debian. 19:13:54 ok, in that case this might be a reminder to bounce it to the Debian maintainer :) 19:13:59 It's possible I forgot on that one, or that it's already been integrated and closed. 19:14:17 I'll make a note and follow up on it. 19:14:35 so any ideas on making sponsorship less painful? 19:15:26 I'm not sure it is painful for newbies. 19:15:49 the build fix is not integrated in the Debian, yet 19:16:19 But, for me I think it boils down to 1) limited time from sponsors, and 2) I tend to work in areas that are quite complex C code, and not all sponsors can even understand the fixes. 19:16:31 hah 19:17:00 well, if the patch is accepted upstream, it makes it easier for a sponsor 19:17:08 Following a normal progression, where you're new, and mostly work on typos and such, I think it's likely that you'd find plenty of ready sponsors. 19:17:24 wendar: i wonder if patch pilots help much here or whether pilots tend to avoid complicated code in areas they don't know well 19:18:12 micahg: Yes, my conclusion over the past couple of months is that just working straight in Debian is often the right answer. Even if I found the problem through an Ubuntu FTBFS. 19:18:44 right, Debian or further upstream (if it exists) 19:19:03 barry: Patch pilots help enormously with the common case. But, perhaps not with more "advanced" sponsorship needs. 19:19:32 i assume that it's not hard to find a sponsor for a patch that was accepted upstream 19:19:42 even if the patch is complicated 19:20:06 bdrung: If it's not critical, I usually just leave the Debian fix to flow through to Ubuntu through normal means. 19:20:19 bdrung: So, yes, no effort at all :) 19:20:23 well, probably depends if there's an Ubuntu diff already or not and how different the package is on our platform 19:20:55 micahg: Fortunately, I find that most universe packages are very close to Debian. 19:21:16 well, I think we're a tad over 75% 19:21:19 (At least, in personal experience, I've never done a full package scan.) 19:21:38 https://merges.ubuntu.com/universe-now.png 19:21:58 ^ I see Logan_ has been busy 19:22:22 wendar: you are subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce? 19:22:23 * ScottK has no questions. 19:22:24 micahg: sweet! 19:22:31 :P 19:22:52 wendar: and I assume we don't need to quiz you about the release schedule 19:22:54 tumbleweed: I think so... 19:24:01 tumbleweed: ah, yes, I filter it into the ubuntu-devel folder 19:24:33 good. it's suprising how many applicants aren't 19:24:36 wendar: there are only 13 uploaded packages listed on launchpad. most of your contribution doesn't seem to be visible there. 19:24:40 tumbleweed: :) we could get into a conversation about whether skipping alphas has been helpful, but that might be distracting 19:24:48 wendar: I've noticed limited activity in sponsored uploads aside from the +1 stint in 2011, can you speak to that point? 19:25:17 micahg: yes, I've been thinking about that since January 19:25:39 micahg: it basically boils down to "project benefit for time spent" 19:26:06 micahg: There are many areas I can contribute. And packaging is one I'm very good at. 19:26:15 Especially around nasty C/Perl failures. 19:26:51 But, when I spend 4 hours fixing a problem, and then 1-2 weeks getting the fix approved, it makes me wonder if that's the best use of my time. 19:27:09 And frankly, frustrates me to the point that I avoid it. 19:27:31 I can't say I'm proud of that fact, but it is a fact. 19:27:54 In Dec 2011 I had a dedicated sponsor, and zipped through a stack of tricky packages. 19:27:59 * ScottK completely understands. I have had the same issue with trying to fix Ubuntu docs. 19:28:04 well, surely in most cases, the fix can be forwarded to Debian and then have a sync requested to pull it in (otherwise, pinging the patch pilot if you need something to go in can be helpful) 19:28:50 I can certainly understand the frustration, but "sponsored" contributions are standard before any type of "commit" rights are given 19:29:06 Sure, but going through Debian is the "well, maybe it'll get applied, eventually" kind of fix. 19:29:33 It's the same problem actually just substitute maintainer for sponsor 19:29:38 micahg: Indeed, and I think that natural progression is the right path. 19:30:02 does it really take so much time to get the fix in? letting the patch sit in the sponsoring queue doesn't consume time. 19:30:04 and saying that one doesn't like the process and avoiding it for that reason doesn't seem right as most of us did have to go through that same process to get upload rights 19:30:19 micahg: I think that if you compress my "sponsored" uploads over the past 6 years, they add up to about what would be reasonable for an upload application. 19:30:44 I see 12 here: http://ubuntu-dev.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsor=&sponsor_search=name&sponsoree=allison+randal&sponsoree_search=name 19:30:49 micahg: I suspect most contributors would do that in 6 months, and then apply. 19:31:41 compared to our next applicant (who's number is a bit high) http://ubuntu-dev.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsor=&sponsor_search=name&sponsoree=logan+rosen&sponsoree_search=name 19:33:39 so you can get 13 patches into the archive in four days 19:34:11 Logan_: well done! 19:34:24 Thanks. :) 19:34:31 * ScottK thinks numbers are not very relevant. 19:35:30 michag: Sorry, was that a question? 19:35:53 #voters micahg ScottK stgraber Laney bdrung barry tumbleweed 19:35:53 Current voters: Laney ScottK barry bdrung micahg stgraber tumbleweed 19:35:59 +1 19:36:07 ScottK: not quite yet 19:36:10 ScottK: hold on :) 19:36:14 OK 19:36:32 #vote Please vote on Allison Randal (wendar) becoming MOTU 19:36:32 Please vote on: Please vote on Allison Randal (wendar) becoming MOTU 19:36:32 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 19:36:38 +1 19:36:38 +1 received from ScottK 19:36:41 +1 19:36:41 +1 received from barry 19:36:43 +1 19:36:43 +1 received from stgraber 19:36:43 +1 19:36:43 +1 received from tumbleweed 19:37:05 +1 19:37:05 +1 received from bdrung 19:37:21 +0 I would've liked more varied contributions beforehand 19:37:21 +0 I would've liked more varied contributions beforehand received from micahg 19:37:32 #endvote 19:37:32 Voting ended on: Please vote on Allison Randal (wendar) becoming MOTU 19:37:32 Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1 19:37:32 Motion carried 19:37:40 wendar: congratulations 19:37:45 wendar: Congrats! 19:37:45 wendar: Congratulations. 19:37:47 for the record, Laney also gave a +1 by e-mail 19:37:49 thanks :) 19:37:53 wendar: congrats! 19:37:55 congrats 19:37:59 wendar: congrats! 19:38:05 welcome wendar 19:39:16 #subtopic Logan Rosen's MOTU application 19:39:23 #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoganRosen/MOTUApplication 19:39:30 Logan_: please introduce yourself 19:39:52 Hey guys. I'm Logan Rosen, and I've been contributing to Ubuntu for a while now. I mostly work on bug triaging (as part of the Bug Squad), merging packages in from Debian, requesting syncs, and merging in new upstream releases of packages to Ubuntu. 19:41:17 I applied for MOTU from the encouragement of a sponsor, who thought that my numerous contributions/sponsored changes were substantial enough to be a MOTU. 19:41:33 * ScottK thinks that's a very good reason to apply. 19:42:28 Being a MOTU would allow me to push fixes to packages more quickly and reduce deltas between Ubuntu and Debian as much as possible, which is what I already do through sponsorship. 19:43:21 I really enjoy working with people in the Ubuntu community, and they have all been very encouraging and helpful. Whenever I have a question, I can count on someone being on IRC to help me out. 19:43:37 Logan_: I see you've been taking an interest in our ubuntu-only packages 19:44:04 any ideas on how we can get other people to do so? they are often terribly unde-maintained 19:44:11 I have - I feel that those are sometimes neglected (hence the neglected Ubuntu-only packages report on ubuntuwire). 19:44:25 glad someone finds it useful 19:45:04 I'm not sure exactly how to engage people in maintaining Ubuntu-only packages, but one way would be to publicize that report more, so that people see the packages that are left behind in the dust. 19:45:36 At one point, I was going through a bunch of them and checking lintian for warnings/errors and fixing them accordingly - just one way to ensure package quality. 19:46:18 hrm, so maybe providing reports on these packages is working to draw attention to them 19:46:28 Logan_: what's happening with https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lxsession-edit ? 19:46:29 UEHS is nice 19:46:39 err I meant https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lxsession-edit/0.2.0-3ubuntu1 19:47:13 Ah, yes. The issue is that I didn't realize at the time that lxsession-edit is provided by the lxsession source package in Ubuntu as well, so the migration scripts got angry, saying that a newer version (from git) was already in the archive. 19:47:33 what are we gonig to do about it? 19:48:16 I initially filed a bug against lxsession in Ubuntu, recommending that the lxsession-edit binary be removed (so that we can be in harmony with Debian), but they decided against that. 19:48:58 It's possible that the lxsession-edit source package will just be removed from Ubuntu (and added to the blacklist, if necessary). I personally prefer minimizing the delta, but there are reasons behind that decision, I suppose. 19:49:40 well, removing the binary wouldn't help users to downgrade to 0.2.... binary 19:50:26 True, but we could then update lxsession-edit in Ubuntu to that git snapshot. 19:51:08 right 19:51:24 Logan_: you're subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce? 19:51:36 I just did, about half an hour ago. 19:51:41 :) 19:52:30 Logan_: do you want to join the sponsoring team? 19:53:18 If you think that would be a good fit for me, then sure. :) 19:55:00 Logan_: so, what stops you forwarding things to Debian? 19:55:08 i think it makes sense to help newcomers after having benefited from the sponsors. 19:55:44 yeah, keeping the sponsorship report down to 0 items is a valuable job 19:56:28 tumbleweed: If it is an Ubuntu-specific change that wouldn't make sense in Debian, then I won't forward it. 19:56:29 tumbleweed: i helped reaching it zero once, but then never got enough time to do it again 19:57:03 bdrung: yeah, I used to sponsor a lot, when I had the time... 19:57:03 (Such as something upstart-related, which usually tends to just be in Ubuntu.) 19:57:12 Logan_: WRT to the last point, I don't see a bug in the BTS for the remaining diff here: https://code.launchpad.net/~logan/ubuntu/raring/tandem-mass/20121001-2ubuntu1/+merge/149920 19:58:08 Logan_: right. there are debian maintainers who will accept ubuntu-specific changes if it means their package can be in sync on Ubuntu. They are quite rare, though 19:59:03 micahg: Yeah - I figured there must have been a reason not to forward it at the time of the change, but I'll forward that to Debian (it might require a +dfsg?). 19:59:33 Logan_: well, that's one solution which I think Debian might prefer 19:59:53 but I think they certainly care about not from source binaries 20:00:04 I also find UDD to be much more intuitive than forwarding debdiffs, although the submittodebian tool from ubuntu-dev-tools attempts to minimize the pain from that. 20:00:39 submittodebian is nice, /me hugs bdmurray 20:01:09 As a DD though I sometimes seen bugs from submittodebian that are very confusing. 20:01:25 You need to make sure what it produces is sensible/useful for the maintainer. 20:01:40 bdmurray: oh, sorry, I thought you had a hand in writing it for some reason 20:01:52 * barry usually extracts the diff and submits from a debian vm ;/ 20:02:31 micahg: Soren Hansen and Steve Langasek wrote it and tumbleweed did a lot about it lately 20:02:44 Logan_: sometimes people figure they'll file the bugs later and then forget about it 20:03:44 Yeah, that's definitely happened to me. 20:04:07 It would be nice if Debian used Launchpad (wishful thinking?). 20:04:21 that's very unlikely to happen 20:04:41 Logan_: so, I remember at one point, you were non-maliciously hijacking merges without discussing with people, I was wondering if you indeed had a talk with the previous uploader about https://code.launchpad.net/~logan/ubuntu/raring/piuparts/0.49ubuntu1/+merge/149918 before proposing the merge 20:06:07 I didn't discuss that one with Andrew, but, with the feature freeze coming up, and considering that the new Debian version came out over a month ago, I figured it would be safe to perform the merge myself. 20:06:24 It was also a pretty simple merge. 20:07:23 Logan_: how well do you know the Ubuntu release schedule? 20:08:02 I'd like to say that I know it pretty well. I mostly focus on the Debian Import Freeze and the Feature Freeze dates, as those are the ones that affect what I do the most. 20:08:39 I filed a number of FFEs in the Quantal cycle, I believe. 20:08:45 are universe packages affected by milestone freezes? 20:08:58 Yup. 20:09:57 all of them or just a subset? 20:10:52 Only the ones that are included on the CDs, as milestone freezes are for ISO testing, I believe. 20:11:06 *DVDs (Quantal <3) 20:11:10 correct 20:11:19 how do you know whether a source is safe to upload or not? 20:11:39 Sorry, in what context? 20:12:21 milestone freeze 20:12:39 how do you know whether something will affect what's on a media 20:13:24 Check the reverse dependencies? 20:14:17 that'd be a pretty tedius process to figure out whether something is on a media or not 20:14:29 did you ever here of the seeded-in-ubuntu tool? 20:14:52 I've seen it, but I'm not sure about its functionality. Isn't it one of the ubuntu-dev-tools scripts? 20:15:04 it's 20:15:16 s/here/heard/ 20:15:30 you can basically use it, passing the name of the source you want to upload and it'll tell you whether it's on a media 20:15:35 Ah, gotcha. 20:16:18 (figured out from the last daily build logs) 20:16:18 now a tricky one, what about vlc, if we're in milestone freeze, can you upload it safely? 20:17:47 Well, it looks like it's on the Mythbuntu ISOs... 20:18:18 correct but is mythbuntu participating in standard releases? 20:18:45 I actually learned last week while triaging bugs that Mythbuntu recently switched to only LTS releases of Ubuntu. 20:18:52 So, I guess it depends on whether or not it is an LTS. 20:19:04 correct 20:19:16 * Logan_ wipes his forehead. 20:19:18 you can upload that package during any non-LTS release while in milestone freeze 20:20:10 Logan_: don't worry, vlc is in my tight hands. ;) 20:20:29 Haha, I'll leave vlc to you in that case. 20:21:48 Logan_: you seem to be a generalist. will you stay that way or are you interested in specialising? 20:22:35 I like being a generalist because it means that there's always work to do in Ubuntu, and I'm not restricted to a certain set of packages. If I were part of a team, though, I'd definitely consider specializing in certain packages. 20:22:41 Logan_: so, back to my point about merges, there are two things, one is to not duplicate work, the assumption is that if someone has a merge they'll do it or orphan it on merges.ubuntu.com, if you're worried about something getting in, a note is nice, the other thing is that there's no shortage of work to be done, so if someone is already taking "responsibility" for something, it's usually good to let them do that and find something neglected 20:22:41 to fix, now there are merges left at the end of the cycle that aren't touched usually, I believe tumbleweed had a list somewhere of neglected merges 20:23:19 yeah, on ubuntuwire somewhere 20:23:35 http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~stefanor/ubuntu-neglected-packages/ 20:24:05 micahg: Okay, I'll definitely make note of the merges I'm working on in the future. 20:26:26 * Logan_ hopes that someone will eventually take up Bug 611121. 20:26:27 bug 611121 in ubuntu-dev-tools (Ubuntu) "add a requestmerge script" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/611121 20:27:05 Logan_: patches welcome. :) 20:27:05 patches are welcome 20:27:12 #vote Please vote on Logan Rosen becoming MOTU 20:27:12 Please vote on: Please vote on Logan Rosen becoming MOTU 20:27:12 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 20:27:25 +1 20:27:25 +1 received from tumbleweed 20:27:28 +1 20:27:28 +1 received from barry 20:27:30 +1 20:27:30 +1 received from ScottK 20:27:32 +1 20:27:32 +1 received from bdrung 20:27:37 +1 20:27:37 +1 received from micahg 20:27:39 +1 20:27:39 +1 received from stgraber 20:27:45 #endvote 20:27:45 Voting ended on: Please vote on Logan Rosen becoming MOTU 20:27:45 Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 20:27:45 Motion carried 20:27:50 Logan_: congratulations 20:27:56 Thanks so much! 20:27:58 Congratulations Logan_. 20:28:04 Logan_: congrats 20:28:15 Logan_: congrats! 20:28:23 welcome to MOTU 20:28:28 tumbleweed: Logan_ bug reminds me to do a u-d-t release. 20:28:36 bdrung: err, yeah 20:28:47 #topic Review of previous action items 20:29:00 #subtopic Iain to do the paperwork for the kernel PPU team delegation 20:29:15 I see Laney did this here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers#Ubuntu_Developers_.28from_delegated_teams.29 20:29:16 He seems to have escaped. 20:29:25 Gotta run - thanks again! 20:29:25 so that's done 20:29:37 #topic AOB 20:30:30 Nothing from me. 20:32:42 #subtopic Decouple PPU from Ubuntu membership (what needs to be done?) 20:33:46 so, IIRC, the TB was ok with the concept, so I guess we need documentation + figuring out team changes? 20:34:07 s/changes/structure/ 20:35:32 micahg: I never did ask, will we be grandfathering in folks who already are PPU members? (which would probably mean directly adding them to the ubuntumembers team) 20:36:11 I would say so 20:36:19 would hate for people to be depending upon membership for some reason (or one of the benefits) and lose that without realizing what happened 20:36:32 pleia2: I think we'll still want a developer only membership without upload rights that recognizes contributions, but that the person isn't quite ready to work without a net, having said that, I think that yes, we'd grandfather those previous ubuntu-dev members in 20:36:49 our changes should only affect future applications 20:37:05 micahg: that's ~universe-contributors, isn't it? 20:37:38 yes, that's ~universe-contributors. maybe we should rename that team 20:37:39 tumbleweed: yeah, I think we need to restructure all of this to bring it into the present though 20:37:42 ok, great 20:37:44 which has no reason to be universe-related 20:38:10 it used to be universe-related, but isn't any more 20:38:25 I can't think of a sane name for a team for ubuntu developers who are members 20:38:46 Ubuntu Contributing Developers 20:39:10 ok I like that 20:39:45 although 20:39:48 UCD makes sense, we've been using the name for a while now, it's just the team name that doesn't make any sense. We should just rename it and be done with it. 20:39:56 ~universe-contributors isn't a member of ubuntu-dev 20:40:07 I thought UCD were members who got membership via development, but weren't ready for upload rights yet? 20:40:09 ok, so can we get someone to draft the new team names/structures and someone to draft new documentation? 20:40:13 ScottK: correct 20:40:20 those peolpe don't have upload rights so they don't get bug-control 20:40:28 (etc.) 20:40:35 So those are members without upload rights. 20:40:48 yes, but we currently call that team Ubuntu Contributing Developers 20:40:51 Don't we need somthing new for upload rights without membership? 20:41:01 ubuntu-ppu ? 20:41:10 yeah, something like that 20:41:11 upload rights without membership are only going to be PPU 20:41:20 Yes. 20:41:23 tumbleweed: +1 20:41:43 hmm, it's going to get tricky... 20:42:05 so we want PPU without membership to be part of some kidn of team so we can track them, yet not have any kind of membership 20:42:05 tumbleweed: no, I can see some packagesets fitting into that as well 20:42:14 and those that have PPU + membership need to be somehow part of ~ubuntu-dev 20:42:23 but UCD members shouldn't be part of ~ubuntu-dev 20:42:51 what is ~ubuntu-dev used for? 20:43:03 ~ubuntu-dev means you can vote for the DMB/TB/... 20:43:04 https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-dev/+participation 20:43:12 and is probably used in a few more places for additional rights 20:44:42 I think we can have ~ubuntu-uploaders and ~ubuntu-contributing-developers as base teams for ubuntu-dev, the former has upload related teams (bug control and such), the later has membership related (cloak, planet) 20:44:46 ~ubuntu-contributors is a subteam of ~ubuntumembers which is a "group of people who vote to confirm new appointments to the Ubuntu Community Council" 20:45:29 barry: right, which isn't the same group as those voting for DMB+TB IIRC :) 20:45:40 ubuntu-dev inherits the permissions, and people can move there once they have both permissions 20:46:59 wait, does ubuntu-dev require general membership or dev membership? 20:47:09 Yes 20:47:16 so should ubuntu-ppu just be a separate team for people who get PPU without upload rights? 20:47:21 (i.e. can someone be a loco rockstar, get PPU and then be able to vote for TB/DMB) 20:47:25 it doesn't sound like it cas easily fit into any tree 20:47:43 tumbleweed: yeah, I'd call the team ubuntu-uploaders as a base team 20:47:49 micahg: Yes. Membership is membership. There's really no such thing as a developer membership. 20:48:24 The current situation is that if you're PPU and have membership, you can vote for TB. 20:48:26 micahg: member + some-kind-of-upload-right => ubuntu-dev (either directly for PPU or indirectly for motu/coredev/package-set) 20:48:46 Now that's currently all PPU, but in the future, we probably have to retain that. 20:48:59 stgraber: right, that was my question, but I guess now that Debian has non uploading DDs, I guess the point isn't as valid 20:49:23 * ScottK wonders how that is relevant. 20:49:36 yeah, not sure what's the relation with non-uploading DDs 20:49:42 the basis of the question was at what point does an uploader have enough experience to have a say in how development activities are done 20:50:58 (i.e. electing those people to decide those policies) 20:51:19 when an uploader also becomes a member they're able to vote, not before that 20:51:32 and members who can't upload don't get to vote for DMB/TB 20:52:00 http://paste.ubuntu.com/5565892/ ? 20:52:16 right, I was wondering if the sustained development aspect was important (we in theory have this now) 20:52:56 It's sustained contribution. 20:53:12 tumbleweed: I wouldn't put all packagesets under ubuntu-dev, the flavors for sure, not sure about the others 20:53:15 If someone was already a member, you don't re-review that. 20:53:33 I guess that's true 20:53:51 micahg: they're already there 20:54:12 micahg: where do we put them then? are we not giving them automatic membership? 20:54:45 any team giving upload rights, except for the special non-member-PPU needs to be a member of ubuntu-dev 20:54:53 that's how it's currently and that's how it should stay 20:55:43 we do tend to create a packageset for any non-trivial PPU application 20:56:04 so argubly there'll be people who don't meet membership criteria 20:56:17 I'd also restrict the non-member-PPU stuff to non-packageset PPU 20:56:17 tumbleweed: we are at the moment, I'm suggesting that be restructured as some packagesets might work better as PPU in that we don't look for sustained contribution (in fact, I think I'd prefer that to lower the bar, so that just ability is gaged) 20:56:46 it can be hard to see ability without sustained contribution 20:57:05 but yes, I'm fine with saying that this is for PPU only 20:57:11 Isn't packageset versus individual package PPU a matter of administrative convenience? 20:57:33 this is what I was thinking: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5565912/ 20:57:46 ScottK: yes 20:58:27 micahg: that's neater than mine 20:59:19 oops, that shouldn't say PPU people under contributing devs, but non-PPU dev members 20:59:22 except that you got ppu members and ppu people the wrong way around 20:59:32 micahg: that makes more sense ;) 20:59:48 must have seen something shiny while typing ;) 21:00:09 If it's just an administrative convenience, we shouldn't make it more than that. 21:00:31 here's with it fixed: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5565921/ 21:00:44 ScottK: until the uploaders team for it has more than one member 21:00:50 i like micahg team structure proposal 21:01:30 micahg: surely line 3 is unecessary 21:01:35 included via ubuntu-dev 21:01:43 if we had a very good reason to give packageset upload to a non-member, we could create a second team for the packageset containing non-members 21:01:51 tumbleweed: hrm? line 3 is the PPU without membership 21:02:10 that'd prevent them accessing branches owned by the main team though, so I certainly won't +1 any such application if there's an active team of members 21:02:13 oh, I misread sorry 21:03:16 stgraber: I was thinking that non-flavor packagesets could be judged on ability only to lower the bar (i.e. cli-mono, input-methods) 21:04:06 +1 micahg's scheme 21:04:08 whereas flavor packagesets are inherently membership based 21:04:09 micahg: I certainly wouldn't want non-members being able to get kernel, server or desktop packageset rights 21:04:33 stgraber: kernel might be the exception here, but they're delegated now 21:04:43 everything else is a flavor 21:05:15 I'm fine grouping kernel with the flavor packagesets 21:05:34 I think kernel uploaders should be members. 21:05:40 micahg: what I mean is that I don't really care for non-seeded but I'm reluctant to give upload rights to seeded packages to non-members 21:05:59 stgraber: seeded = flavor :) 21:06:02 micahg: to take a better example, I wouldn't give non-member upload rights to the ubuntuone set 21:06:10 oh, hrm 21:06:17 micahg: nope, we have quite a few package sets containing seeded packages that aren't flavors 21:06:49 * stgraber grabs a list 21:06:55 How can there be a seeded package that isn't in a flavor set (or core) 21:06:55 are we willing to give PPU for something seeded without membership? 21:07:13 * ScottK doesn't see how it matters. 21:07:23 I think the answer is yes (the membership aspect is about sustained contribution, not trust IMHO) 21:07:38 so, I don't see a problem with ubuntuone 21:07:38 ScottK: packages can be in multiple sets 21:07:59 Right, but to be in an image, it needs to be in at least one. 21:08:39 ScottK: based on what micahg said before, he'd be fine granting someone upload rights to the xorg set for example without requiring membership. But all packages in the xorg set are in main and seeded on all media. 21:08:55 Right. 21:09:14 So that's core though. 21:09:15 same goes for some stuff in bzr, input-methods, kernel, langpack, mozilla, ubuntuone and utouch 21:09:22 here's my example, some DD became proficient in Ubuntu One packages after introducing them into Debian and would like to have the packages flow through Debian where possible, we'd need to make sure that the person was obviously in touch with the Ubuntu U1 members and understands the release cycle, but I don't see why membership is needed 21:09:41 Agreed. 21:10:02 micahg: i agree. ppu is about trust and competence. membership is about sustained contribution (on top of that) 21:10:14 we won't grant PPU to begin with if we think someone is going to make a mess of things, image or not 21:10:15 As another example, I've got no problem with giving some people who work on X in Debian PPU rights in Ubuntu as long as we make sure they know a few things. 21:10:42 I don't see how seeded or not affects the decision. 21:11:53 We've probably done about enough for one meeting. 21:12:02 * bdrung nods. 21:12:06 I think we'll find that it's most often linked as "sustained" will often mean trusted and ready to contribute to core parts of Ubuntu. 21:12:08 micahg: Could you write up your proposal and send it to the list? 21:12:30 ScottK: for the team structure, sure, could someone offer to write up the documentation proposal? 21:12:41 but I guess I'm fine with not making it a requirement and will instead just -1 those applications until they'd be fine by me to be members too. 21:12:44 or is this all inclusive? 21:14:44 stgraber: well, with core areas of Ubuntu, I'm more concerned with ability and trust than sustained contribution TBH, though trust a lot of time manifests itself as sustained contribution, but are not necessarily one in the same 21:15:12 (not core-dev, PPU) 21:16:02 #action micahg to write up proposal for new team structure and send to DMB list 21:16:02 * meetingology micahg to write up proposal for new team structure and send to DMB list 21:16:37 ok, so unless there's anything else, I'll end the meeting as we're at 2+ hours 21:16:38 micahg: my experience is that you build trust over time, and it happens that the time I use to consider "sustained" and "trusted" happens to be pretty much the same ;) 21:19:03 stgraber: I can think of cases where they need not be one in the same and would prefer the flexibility to play it by ear 21:19:36 but we can take it to the ML 21:20:05 unless you think there's something more we can do right now 21:20:35 nope, I'm happy to get back to work now, wasn't a terribly productive day for me so far ;) 21:20:44 heh, I can relate 21:21:09 next chair, Laney with stgraber as a backup 21:21:11 #endmeeting Generated by MeetBot 0.1.5 (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology)