17:00:10 <dholbach> #startmeeting Community Council meeting
17:00:10 <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Dec 20 17:00:10 2012 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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17:00:23 <dholbach> Welcome everyone to the last CC meeting in 2012.
17:00:29 <czajkowski> Aloha
17:00:33 <Gwaihir> o/
17:00:37 <cprofitt> hello
17:00:53 <dholbach> Today we are going to catch up with the Forums Council and the Translations team. Do we have somebody from either of the two teams here?
17:02:26 <dholbach> I got a reminder email from somebody in the translations team today, so they should be aware. I'll go and see who I can round up. Can somebody reach out to some FC folks?
17:03:35 <cprofitt> pinged the forums irc channel
17:03:47 <dholbach> thanks cprofitt
17:03:53 <czajkowski> cool I was about to try and find folks via https://launchpad.net/~forum-council/+members#active
17:04:42 * dholbach lights the bat^WCC signal
17:04:55 <cprofitt> looking at who is on in their irc channel I do not see anyone from the FC
17:06:19 <dholbach> hey kelemengabor :)
17:06:32 <dholbach> I'd say we start with the Translations team then. :-)
17:06:33 <kelemengabor> hi dholbach, all
17:06:47 <dholbach> #topic Catching up with the Translations team
17:06:55 <dholbach> kelemengabor, how are you doing?
17:07:03 <dholbach> thanks a lot for making a bit of time
17:07:14 <czajkowski> kelemengabor: ello
17:07:26 <cprofitt> hello kelemengabor
17:07:53 <kelemengabor> well, not much ubuntu-wise, sadly. I was busy with other tasks :(
17:08:13 <kelemengabor> btw, isn't dpm the translations team lead? :)
17:08:53 <dholbach> We've been doing these catch-ups with various teams in the Ubuntu community for 2 cycles now and at UDS the suggestion to talk with the translations community as well was brought up and I mailed the team after UDS, it seems like this has fallen through the cracks, probably holiday-related, which is understandable
17:09:00 <dholbach> kelemengabor, I pinged him, but he might be in a call just now
17:09:20 <dholbach> kelemengabor, what was your gut feeling of the last release and how the translations community dealt with it?
17:10:48 * trijntje is on his way home and will read back
17:11:54 <kelemengabor> last release... it was a little buggy to my taste (compared to Precise), also we are quite lacking dpm's leadership. without someone pushing things forward, things tend to not move forward...
17:12:25 <czajkowski> nods
17:12:43 <dholbach> kelemengabor, how do things generally work in the translations team? are there milestones? do teams get notified about missing translations?
17:13:49 <dholbach> I must admit that I never dived too deep into translations work, but was always impressed that so many strings get translated every cycle and people sometimes just spontaneously pick things up
17:13:53 <Gwaihir> kelemengabor, might be a good opportunity to open up a little bit the ubuntu-translation-coordinators team too, am also part of it, but have less less time lately, new people might help out
17:14:14 * cprofitt nods to Gwaihir
17:14:25 <czajkowski> Gwaihir: ah yes I'd like to see that happening also
17:14:55 <teolemon> there's been a recent focus on tacking the Software Centre Descriptions
17:15:05 <teolemon> aka the DDTP
17:15:06 <kelemengabor> no, we don't have milestones. there are things that need to be done at certain times in the release cycle (opening up translations, setting up langpack export&build, cleaning the import queue) but these are not formalized
17:15:11 <teolemon> tackling
17:15:13 <dholbach> hello teolemon
17:15:24 <teolemon> hello dholbach
17:16:28 <Gwaihir> teolemon, on that front, is there also coordination with upstream/Debian? they have their own set-up to handle that...
17:16:29 <kelemengabor> Gwaihir: sure. but without organization and mentoring, they'd be doomed :)
17:16:42 <dholbach> I'm not quite sure I understand it yet, but is the problem you're seeing that these notifications (with specific related tasks) are missing?
17:17:11 <teolemon> DDTP on Debian side was down for a couple of months
17:17:21 <kelemengabor> dholbach: what do you mean by notifications?
17:17:31 <teolemon> and we were told there was some sync with Debian
17:17:39 <teolemon> could never check if it was true
17:17:50 <Gwaihir> kelemengabor, true, the wiki also needs to be cleaned up a little bit... :-/
17:17:53 <kelemengabor> probably we should have a blueprint to keep these in order, but we don't
17:18:01 <kelemengabor> have any
17:18:25 <dholbach> kelemengabor, the way I imagined things, I thought that all the individual translations teams would need a heads-up about what needs to be translated at which time, etc
17:18:25 <teolemon> but we've started using a semi-automated approach using Google Translator Kit and crowdsourcing to tackle the sheer amount of work
17:18:27 <kelemengabor> Gwaihir: yes, the wiki needs a lot of love
17:19:21 <kelemengabor> dholbach: I see. no, these are team-internal tasks, that need to be done once for all the languages.
17:19:58 <kelemengabor> as per notifying teams, we have some announcements, but only a few
17:20:12 <kelemengabor> usually, they keep an eye on the statistics page
17:20:18 <kelemengabor> that tells everything
17:20:25 <kelemengabor> (or should :))
17:20:27 <dholbach> ok, that sounds like a good start already :)
17:20:27 <teolemon> same here
17:20:43 <teolemon> the statistics page was a way to motivate everybody
17:20:55 <teolemon> even if it listed upstream packages
17:21:01 <dholbach> is there some team internal discussions and exchange between the teams about what works well for them?
17:21:09 <teolemon> which led to beginners retranslating upstream
17:21:40 <kelemengabor> dholbach: there were, in the precise cycle, bi-weekly calls
17:21:43 <teolemon> we're starting to do so, as we discover issues
17:21:48 <teolemon> for instance
17:21:48 <kelemengabor> not anymore, though
17:22:07 <teolemon> we share the same hatred for the infamous launchpad timeout bug :-)
17:22:10 <dholbach> would irc meetings maybe work better?
17:22:29 <kelemengabor> and those worked well, so it would be good to resurrect those
17:22:37 <czajkowski> teolemon: many of those timeout bugs are being fixed
17:22:38 <kelemengabor> dholbach: it's not about the medium
17:22:49 <teolemon> yes
17:22:51 <dholbach> but somebody setting them up?
17:23:04 <kelemengabor> exactly. that was dpm.
17:23:41 <kelemengabor> also these were UTC meetings, so not open for everyone
17:23:58 <dholbach> that's an obvious speciality of the translations world
17:24:05 <dholbach> maybe it'd make sense to have rotating times
17:24:15 <dholbach> and there I think (especially if you have many people), IRC might work better
17:24:28 <kelemengabor> we talked about setting up stuff, making translators life easier...
17:24:52 <kelemengabor> https://trello.com/board/translations-team/4f621c87861db54230b9ca39
17:24:55 <kelemengabor> like this
17:25:29 <teolemon> also, if those meetings could include some person related to Launchpad Translations
17:25:49 <dholbach> maybe it'd be worth bringing up the idea of regular meetings on the team mailing list again
17:25:54 <teolemon> i think it would help to integrate translations closer into software
17:26:08 <dholbach> yes, and invite external people who should be able to help
17:26:30 <kelemengabor> teolemon: maybe, but I heard that there is no dedicated LP Translations dev team anymore.
17:26:42 <czajkowski> kelemengabor: that is true there isn't
17:26:56 <teolemon> :-/
17:26:58 <czajkowski> LP doesn't have dedicated teams, it has squads that work on different projects
17:26:58 <dholbach> still it should be possible to get a representative every now and then, I guess :)
17:27:11 <dholbach> like if there's something pressing
17:27:14 <czajkowski> and there is a maintenance squad currently working on critical bugs
17:28:45 <Gwaihir> dholbach, possible, but the only people I know that were really working on LP Translations, and are still somewhat around are Danilo and Jeroen
17:28:46 <teolemon> I guess translation isn't something that fails in a spectacular way
17:29:03 <kelemengabor> dholbach: on the regular meetings: we had some open meetings on IRC a few years ago, like Lucid-time... those were okay too
17:29:44 <czajkowski> perhaps like dholbach suggests having regular meetings again may help bring the team together and get more interest in
17:30:32 <kelemengabor> teolemon: not yet. but have you heard about the langpack update for Quantal?
17:30:42 <kelemengabor> me neither. and this is a problem.
17:30:54 <dholbach> well that certainly was insightful to me so far, but maybe we should have another meeting where we discuss things and find out together what we can do, but yes, I agree an internal team meeting to collect some ideas might be a good start
17:30:55 <teolemon> nope
17:31:01 <kelemengabor> that may escalate quickly... :(
17:31:07 <cprofitt> is there a regular blog post from the translations team to planet?
17:31:31 <teolemon> i don't know if the point was raised already
17:31:37 <czajkowski> can you elaborate on "langpack update for Quantal?
17:31:57 <teolemon> but the fact that david was shifted to applications is also scaring me a little bit
17:32:02 <kelemengabor> cprofitt: dpm does posts about translations to the planet, but rarely
17:32:04 <dholbach> czajkowski, feed updated translations into the stable quantal release
17:32:10 <czajkowski> ah thanks dholbach
17:32:48 <teolemon> we had some import issues before the release of quantal
17:33:29 <cprofitt> kelemengabor: it sounds like the internal meeting is important to identify areas of need... and that a little exposure (planet) could help attract some new folks...
17:33:47 <teolemon> and loads of tiny issues that need really good attention and knowledge of the merge process and all that stuff
17:33:56 <kelemengabor> czajkowski: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/OneiricOcelot/ReleaseSchedule - we had this for Oneiric, but not for Precise or Quantal
17:34:26 <kelemengabor> cprofitt: absolutely
17:34:55 <teolemon> indeed
17:35:02 <dholbach> to me it looks, like we should have another catch-up with the translations team, maybe after some internal discussion - what do you think? :)
17:35:16 <kelemengabor> and we have this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/LanguagePackUpdatesQA/LanguagePackUpdateScheduleTemplate
17:35:35 <teolemon> listing all the bugs and pain points
17:35:36 <kelemengabor> this is a well designed machinery, but it would need an operator
17:35:38 <cprofitt> +1 dholbach
17:35:45 <czajkowski> ah
17:35:45 <teolemon> and ranking them by time lost
17:35:51 <dholbach> kelemengabor, or a team of operators :)
17:36:11 <czajkowski> so I do know for Precise there was some issues opening up Precise for translations which may have had an affect to the schedule
17:36:32 <czajkowski> https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/211651  this is now waiting for be ack'd as far as I can see for raring
17:36:35 <kelemengabor> dholbach: sure. preferably of the kind that does not graduate or marry in a year :)
17:37:14 <dholbach> there's always this thing called life around all the Ubuntu stuff :)
17:37:52 <czajkowski> heh indeed
17:38:03 <dholbach> I'll take an action to mail the translations team again about a new date in 2013
17:38:11 <dholbach> we have no word back from the Forums Council, so we might have to reschedule them as well
17:38:24 <cprofitt> yes, we should reschedule with them
17:38:25 <kelemengabor> czajkowski: yep, that's it. assigned to dpm, but seems he does not have time...
17:38:39 <teolemon> there's no intend to replace David's full time as translation coordinator/developper, right ?
17:38:55 <czajkowski> kelemengabor: we/me can reassign it to another person to open up the raring translations
17:39:02 <czajkowski> but we've not been asked to do so
17:39:05 <trijntje> hi, just dropping in, I'd have to agree that we are a bit at a loss without dpm ;)
17:39:44 <dholbach> I feel there's always going to be times like this, where you have a transition and you need to figure out what can be done to keep the train rolling.
17:39:50 <czajkowski> nods
17:39:54 <cprofitt> +1 dholbach
17:40:02 <czajkowski> well was it explained what was happening so that a transition could be put in place?
17:40:13 <dholbach> but a few of the things which were mentioned earlier could be done by a team of translators as well - like posting on planet for example
17:40:18 <czajkowski> nods
17:40:34 <dholbach> in fact it'd make things a bit more lively if there's posts from multiple people and teams rather than just one guy
17:40:44 <czajkowski> dholbach: +1
17:41:09 <dholbach> or organising a meeting
17:41:21 <cprofitt> yes, it is good to see multiple people from teams...
17:41:33 <dholbach> but I appreciate that losing a dedicated full-time person can be a shock
17:41:55 <kelemengabor> czajkowski: can you reassign to the ubuntu-translations-coordinators team?
17:41:59 <teolemon> especially on the technical side
17:42:06 <teolemon> i'm not a developper
17:42:09 <cprofitt> posting on the planet. I think it helps give people perspective and allows people to identify the effort as a true team effort... gives them more people to contact if they are interested too
17:43:00 <dholbach> Do you feel that there's anything the CC could do to help? Apart from cloning David? :-)
17:43:21 <teolemon> and implementing fuzzy in lp, fixing the timeout, opening raring early, making sure the upstream translations are imported quickly to avoid duplication and stuff like that requires technical mojo
17:43:36 <dholbach> it's great we're having this discussion right now as I haven't heard much about the translations community in the last time and feel like I learned a lot
17:44:03 <kelemengabor> teolemon: I think Santa is not here right now... :P
17:44:13 <teolemon> lol
17:44:18 <teolemon> :-)
17:44:22 <czajkowski> kelemengabor: I can if that is what is the best thing to do
17:44:22 <dholbach> haha
17:45:20 <kelemengabor> dholbach: good question. I can't think of anything right now, maybe later. until then, please clone David :).
17:45:37 * cprofitt looks for cloning instructions
17:45:40 <czajkowski> teolemon: we;ve down to 170 critical bugs so hopefully they will be done soon in the new year
17:45:42 <dholbach> haha, I'll make sure to get into the lab later on
17:45:46 <teolemon> also wanted to point this out
17:45:47 <teolemon> http://lite.framapad.org/p/ddtpUbuntu
17:45:56 <teolemon> we've been starting this
17:46:11 <teolemon> because we noticed people value translated descriptions better
17:46:42 <dholbach> cool
17:46:51 <teolemon> translations add a polished look
17:47:04 <teolemon> and increase the perceived value of ubuntu
17:47:13 <teolemon> both on the app side
17:47:19 <teolemon> as well as on the doc side
17:47:33 <teolemon> where normalized doc
17:47:37 <teolemon> when translated
17:47:44 <trijntje> also on the ddtp front: soon all packages will be sorted based on popcon, so translators can work on the descriptions of the most popular packages first without external tools
17:47:46 <teolemon> saves a lot of time and ressources
17:48:02 <czajkowski> I've changed the asignee of https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/211651  to ~ubuntu-translations-coordinators
17:48:24 <dholbach> Would it be OK for you to maybe have a think as a team and we get back together in the new year to spend some time brainstorming about what can be done and where the priorities should lie? That's at least something the CC could offer in terms of help.
17:49:00 <trijntje> that would be nice
17:49:23 <dholbach> all right, I'll take an action to mail the translations team and the forums council about a new date
17:50:08 <teolemon> kelemengabor, trijntje: http://lite.framapad.org/p/ubuntutranslationscoordination
17:50:11 <kelemengabor> dholbach: sure, we can have an IRC meeting to discuss what should/can be done and who is interested
17:50:17 <teolemon> let's start right now ;-)
17:50:40 <dholbach> kelemengabor, cool - I think that'd help lots - also to get a feel for priorities
17:50:51 <dholbach> cprofitt, czajkowski, any more questions from you?
17:51:37 <czajkowski> no I think it'll be good to hear from the team post xmas and maybe once thye've had a chance to think about things and how we can help
17:51:40 <czajkowski> thanks for coming
17:51:51 <dholbach> trijntje, teolemon, kelemengabor: thanks a lot for joining us here
17:52:20 <dholbach> #topic Any other business?
17:52:20 <trijntje> dholbach: sure, thanks for your time, happy holidays
17:52:26 <dholbach> and the same to you :)
17:52:31 <cprofitt> thanks to all for coming.
17:52:32 <trijntje> (barring the end of the world ofc)
17:52:33 <teolemon> thanks a lot
17:53:21 <dholbach> I don't have any other business - our Trello looks in shape and there's nothing on the agenda page
17:53:30 <dholbach> anyone else?
17:53:43 <czajkowski> narp
17:54:03 <czajkowski> Have a lovely Christmas folks :)
17:54:07 <dholbach> all right, that's it then :)
17:54:17 <dholbach> enjoy the holidays, have a great start into 2013
17:54:25 <dholbach> and thanks for all the great work you all put into Ubuntu!
17:54:27 <dholbach> big hugs!
17:54:43 <dholbach> thanks everyone
17:54:44 <dholbach> #endmeeting