14:00:13 <barry> #startmeeting
14:00:13 <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jul 30 14:00:13 2012 UTC.  The chair is barry. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
14:00:13 <meetingology> 
14:00:13 <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
14:00:35 <micahg> barry: starting a minute early? :)
14:00:42 <barry> hello and welcome to this week's developer membership board meeting.  do we have quorum?
14:00:50 <tumbleweed> micahg: your clock is off
14:00:52 <barry> micahg: it's all relative :)
14:01:00 <barry> micahg: is in a gravitational well
14:01:17 * micahg fires up the warp engines
14:01:18 <barry> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
14:02:05 * stgraber waves
14:02:32 * bdrung waves mechanically.
14:03:11 <barry> shall we wait a minute or two to see if Laney shows up?
14:03:17 <Laney> soryr
14:03:18 <Laney> i am here
14:03:27 <Laney> just twiddling a bug, one sec
14:03:32 <barry> yay!  welcome everyone
14:03:52 <barry> #topic review of previous action items
14:04:04 <barry> micahg to document the zentyal packageset
14:04:04 <barry> 
14:04:11 * micahg hides
14:04:23 <barry> continued then :)
14:04:33 <bdrung> micahg: should we dig out the last meeting logs? ;)
14:04:57 <barry> micahg to start a discussion on dmb@ about whether PPU should confer membership
14:05:00 <micahg> bdrung: no :)
14:05:06 <barry> i think that one's done, right?
14:05:07 <micahg> barry: that was done already
14:05:24 <barry> as was this one: get consensus whether upload rights should confer membership
14:05:26 <barry> ?
14:05:48 <bdrung> did we got to a consensus?
14:06:07 <micahg> no, beuno was supposed to start that discussion
14:07:05 <ScottK> Isn't that backwards?
14:07:15 <barry> micahg: does he know that?  i did a quick review of my thread on that to the dmb list and see nothing about beuno
14:07:24 <ScottK> Membership has certain requirements and the question is if you can get upload rights if you don't meet those.
14:07:48 <micahg> barry: I think that was part of the CC discussion we had about 3.5 weeks ago
14:08:47 <barry> micahg: k.  so i should continue this item.  should i put bueno's name next to it?
14:08:58 <tumbleweed> and one of us should take an action to prod him
14:09:07 <micahg> barry: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/07/16/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t19:11
14:09:37 <bdrung> shouldn't we come to a proposed change to discuss with the CC?
14:09:39 <Laney> ScottK: backwards how?
14:09:57 <ScottK> How can giving upload rights confer membership?
14:10:12 <ScottK> Membership has certain requirements and either you meet them or you don't.
14:10:25 <barry> micahg: will you mind pinging him about it?
14:10:37 <ScottK> The question is can you have upload rights if you aren't a member/don't meet requirements.
14:10:42 <tumbleweed> membership of the ubuntu-dev LP group gives indirect membership of the ubuntu-members group
14:10:54 <ScottK> Which is a bug.
14:11:02 <micahg> barry: I suppose
14:11:03 <Laney> that's what we're cosnidering.
14:11:06 <ScottK> CC owns membership requirements, not DMB.
14:11:12 <barry> micahg: thanks
14:11:22 <micahg> scottK: depends who you ask :), that's the issue, we didn't come to a consensus before
14:11:26 <Laney> and why we're asking a CC member to start this thread ...
14:11:27 <tumbleweed> ScottK: which is why we took it to them
14:12:00 <ScottK> Ah.
14:12:00 * barry will change the action item to just the ping; and we'll let beuno and the cc take it from there
14:12:01 <tumbleweed> but in the past, we've kind of waived the "significant and sustained contributions" bit of the membership requirements, for some PPU applications
14:12:11 <tumbleweed> anyway, probably best not to have this discussion here and now :)
14:12:17 <ScottK> OK.
14:12:32 <barry> #topic Review any packageset descriptions that have been received (micahg)
14:13:01 <micahg> barry: carried, I'll try to get that rolling by the end of next month
14:13:10 <barry> micahg: thanks
14:13:17 <barry> #topic package sets
14:13:22 <barry> anything new there?
14:13:48 * barry thinks not
14:13:55 <micahg> no, no one applying
14:14:01 <bdrung> no, that's why it hasn't any subpoints
14:14:45 <barry> tumbleweed reminds me of one other action item not on the wiki page:
14:14:48 <barry> extra action item review item: Any progress on the ubuntu developers woh haven't signed the CoC?
14:16:26 <micahg> well, we get an update weekly now, but haven't yet contacted the members in question
14:16:27 <tumbleweed> sounds like the answer there is action: micahg
14:17:08 <barry> yep.  micahg let us know if you want to off load some of that
14:17:24 <barry> #topic PerPackageUploader Applications
14:17:27 <micahg> ok
14:17:42 <barry> matttbe ping
14:17:46 * matttbe waves
14:17:55 <matttbe> Hello evryone!
14:18:30 <barry> matttbe: welcome.  you're applying for ppu in cairo-dock cairo-doc-plug-ins and latexila, right?  can you tell us something about yourself?
14:18:41 <matttbe> yes. sure!
14:18:51 <barry> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/matttbe/PerPackageUploaderApplication
14:19:03 <matttbe> Firstly, I want to apology for my "not so good" English, I hope it's readable ;)
14:19:20 <bdrung> matttbe: it was.
14:19:28 <matttbe> So... I'm Matthieu Baerts, student at UCL (in Belgium -- and no, sorry but I can't send you any Belgian beers, you'll have to come here for the next FOSDEM meeting :P ).
14:19:41 <tumbleweed> awww
14:19:54 <matttbe> I'm also a member of the Cairo-Dock team and other projects which support Free Software
14:20:03 <matttbe> (I'm a member of a LUG (LouviLug) and I joined the Louvain-li-Nux association which promotes Free Software through Ubuntu's installations, weekly supports to the community and event's organizations 2 years ago).
14:20:19 <matttbe> I've been working on Cairo-Dock packages since September 2009 and on LaTeXila packages since March 2011.
14:21:27 <matttbe> I want to apply for upload rights for Cairo-Dock and LaTeXila packages because I *think* I'm starting to "annoy" my sponsors with these 'simple' releases :) (and mainly because Andrew Starr-Bochicchio told me that it was maybe a good idea to have these rights to upload directly these packages in order to not lose time)
14:22:03 <matttbe> I think that's it :) But feel free to ask me for other things :)
14:22:33 <barry> matttbe: is there a cairo ppa and have you done any uploads to it?
14:23:03 <bdrung> matttbe: you are involved with the upstream projects and i saw that new package version closes bunches of Launchpad bugs. do you collaborate with our direct upstream Debian?
14:23:32 <Laney> There's some disagreement / difference with Debian that was supposed to get resolved IIRC
14:23:34 <matttbe> sure!
14:23:36 <matttbe> I'm a member of cairo-dock-team and I maintain these ppa: https://launchpad.net/~cairo-dock-team/+archive/ppa and https://launchpad.net/~cairo-dock-team/+archive/weekly
14:24:14 <barry> s/cairo/cairo-dock/
14:24:15 <matttbe> + repos for Debian on http://download.tuxfamily.org/glxdock/repository/
14:25:19 <matttbe> In fact, we have some troubles with our Debian maintainers :-/
14:25:21 <matttbe> We already report bugs to them but it's hard to change things
14:25:42 <matttbe> (as you can see there: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cairo-dock-plugins/+bug/657564 )
14:25:44 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 657564 in cairo-dock-plugins (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Duplicated package with cairo-dock-plugins (coming from Debian)" [Undecided,Confirmed]
14:26:55 <matttbe> They decided to split all our plugins but it's hard to maintain that (there are a few dependences), they also add useless dependences and made 1 or 2 wrong patches but now it's a bit better ;)
14:27:03 <bdrung> matttbe: have you tried to join the Debian Cairo-dock Maintainers team and do your packaging work in their git repositories?
14:27:43 <matttbe> yes, I did it but they don't want to have the same packages than what we have in Ubuntu
14:28:28 <bdrung> matttbe: is there no way to come to a consensus?
14:29:19 <micahg> matttbe: as long as they add the appropriate interdependencies and have a meta package to install all the plugins, what's the issue?
14:29:35 <matttbe> I know that it's an annoying problem but with other members of Cairo-Dock team, we already tried. This is now better and I think we can say that there is no way to come to a consensus about these dependences
14:30:34 <micahg> matttbe: can you give an example of a "useless dependency"?
14:30:58 <matttbe> micahg: yes, now they have a meta package but no appropriate interdependencies (and if you install Cairo-Dock on Debian, it will install thunar-data, kde stuff, etc. which are just useless if you're using Gnome)
14:32:10 <tumbleweed> have bugs been filed in debian about this?
14:32:43 <matttbe> (cairo-dock package depends of cairo-dock-plugins meta package which depends of cairo-dock-xfce-integration-plug-in package which install thunar dependences)
14:32:50 <matttbe> tumbleweed: yes of course
14:34:17 <matttbe> tumbleweed:  on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cairo-dock-plugins/+bug/657564 and there I think: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=493736
14:34:19 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 657564 in cairo-dock-plugins (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Duplicated package with cairo-dock-plugins (coming from Debian)" [Undecided,Confirmed]
14:34:20 <ubottu> Debian bug 493736 in wnpp "ITP: cairo-dock -- An light eye-candy fully themable animated dock for any Linux desktop" [Wishlist,Fixed]
14:34:20 <bdrung> matttbe: i can't see an open bug report for that in the BTS
14:34:24 <micahg> matttbe: actually, it seems the meta package isn't pulled in by the -plugins package
14:34:50 <matttbe> (and also on our forums)
14:35:02 <micahg> the integration meta I mean
14:35:04 <matttbe> maybe I should re-open a new bug report...
14:35:13 <micahg> matttbe: I think the issue has been solved
14:35:33 <matttbe> micahg: oh, maybe, good news :)
14:36:47 <barry> do we have any other questions for matttbe?
14:36:47 <micahg> matttbe: have you considered levering the backports pocket to provide stable updates?
14:36:55 <micahg> *leveraging
14:37:37 <matttbe> micahg: except that now, it doesn't install any -integration plug-ins (for a better integration in Gnome, XFCE, KDE and other DE which use gvfs) :)
14:38:04 <micahg> matttbe: right, you could suggest an alternate Recommends with a sane default maybe
14:39:02 <matttbe> micahg: I don't understand your question, sorry. Did you mean that it can be good to backport stable update?
14:39:41 <micahg> matttbe: yes, backports is enabled by default since oneiric
14:40:15 <micahg> matttbe: you might want to look at the requestbackport tool in ubuntu-dev-tools in precise and later
14:41:01 <matttbe> micahg: ok, thank you. I'll have a look to this tool
14:42:05 <bdrung> matttbe: i recommend to look at the wrap-and-sort tool (in devscripts and ubuntu-dev-tools previously)
14:42:58 <matttbe> bdrung: oh, nice tool (as many other but there are a lot of tools like that :) )
14:43:02 <matttbe> thank you
14:44:51 <bdrung> matttbe: i saw that indicator-applet 0.5.0-0ubuntu2 failed to build (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-applet/0.5.0-0ubuntu2). how could that happen and what are you doing to prevent this to happen in the future?
14:46:25 <matttbe> bdrung: Yes, I thought that it was enough to only test the modification in the apport hook :)
14:46:27 <matttbe> But next time, I'll build the new version with pbuilder
14:47:07 <matttbe> bdrung: but I fixed the bug in the next version and report the problem to indicator-applet devs
14:48:21 <bdrung> matttbe: better be save than sorry. the build failure was introduced by a glib change and not by you. that's why test building should be always done before uploading.
14:49:08 <stgraber> matttbe: are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce@lists.ubuntu.com and read it at least daily?
14:49:57 <matttbe> stgraber: I'm subscribed recently :)
14:51:31 <matttbe> (stgraber: I'll read it at least daily but currently I only received maximum one or two messages)
14:51:49 <stgraber> yeah, it's very low trafic but very important messages
14:52:09 <stgraber> so should be read pretty quickly after something new is posted to it (like the freeze announcements)
14:52:16 <bdrung> matttbe: it's good to check that before doing an upload (e.g. for freeze notifications)
14:53:07 <matttbe> bdrung: ok, I'll do that. (and I've also bookmarked this link: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule )
14:53:13 <barry> #voters barry bdrung Laney micahg tumbleweed stgraber cody-somerville
14:53:13 <meetingology> Current voters: Laney barry bdrung cody-somerville micahg stgraber tumbleweed
14:53:54 <barry> #vote grant matttbe ppu rights to cairo-dock cairo-dock-plug-ins latexila
14:53:54 <meetingology> Please vote on: grant matttbe ppu rights to cairo-dock cairo-dock-plug-ins latexila
14:53:54 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
14:54:50 <tumbleweed> +1 [ and I'd like to see these packages eventually get in sync with debian ]
14:54:50 <meetingology> +1 [ and I'd like to see these packages eventually get in sync with debian ] received from tumbleweed
14:54:50 <bdrung> +1 please work with the Debian maintainers to reduce the diff between Debian and Ubuntu
14:54:50 <meetingology> +1 please work with the Debian maintainers to reduce the diff between Debian and Ubuntu received from bdrung
14:55:33 <barry> +1 i would also like to see you work toward an eventual sync w/debian
14:55:33 <meetingology> +1 i would also like to see you work toward an eventual sync w/debian received from barry
14:55:35 <stgraber> +1
14:55:35 <meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
14:55:43 <micahg> +0 good work overall, would like to see more integration with Debian (it seems all the issues have been addressed)
14:55:43 <meetingology> +0 good work overall, would like to see more integration with Debian (it seems all the issues have been addressed) received from micahg
14:55:46 <Laney> +0 sorry have been distracted
14:55:46 <meetingology> +0 sorry have been distracted received from Laney
14:56:09 <matttbe> tumbleweed, bdrung, barry: yes, you're right. I'll re-contact Cairo-Dock Debian team!
14:56:32 <micahg> err...+1
14:56:35 <matttbe> (BTW I see that I'm still a member of this team ^^ https://alioth.debian.org/projects/pkg-cairo-dock/ )
14:57:03 <bdrung> matttbe: i recommend to work with them in their git repository and merge the Ubuntu changes step by step (starting with the easy bits)
14:57:35 <matttbe> bdrung: ok, I'll try to do that!
14:58:12 <micahg> +1
14:58:12 <meetingology> +1 received from micahg
14:58:16 <barry> #endvote
14:58:16 <meetingology> Voting ended on: grant matttbe ppu rights to cairo-dock cairo-dock-plug-ins latexila
14:58:16 <meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
14:58:16 <meetingology> Motion carried
14:58:26 <barry> matttbe: congratulations!
14:58:27 <bdrung> matttbe: in most cases it is a pleasant experience to work with Debian Developers
14:58:42 <matttbe> Thanks all!
14:59:14 <matttbe> bdrung: yes, sure I also want to have "better" packages in Debian but... I'll try :)
14:59:24 <matttbe> Also I've two tiny questions: about Ubuntu Membership and the previous discussions, should I do something more to have this membership?
14:59:32 <barry> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
14:59:40 <tumbleweed> you'll get automatic membership, as things stand ATM
14:59:56 <matttbe> tumbleweed: ok, thank you :)
15:00:04 <barry> tumbleweed: welcome! you are applying to ubuntu core developer.  do you want to introduce yourself? :)
15:00:15 <micahg> matttbe: try to keep in mind, it might be possible to satisfy your wants/needs as well of those of the other Debian packagers
15:00:22 <tumbleweed> barry: sure. I'll try and be quick, and we're already out of time
15:00:29 <barry> thanks
15:00:42 <tumbleweed> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StefanoRivera/CoreDevApplication
15:00:48 <tumbleweed> meh, meetingology doesn't like me
15:00:51 <tumbleweed> anyway
15:01:06 <tumbleweed> you had better all know me, I serve on this board :)
15:01:06 * barry thinks #links aren't working
15:01:27 <tumbleweed> so, I mostly do universe stuff, but occasionally touch something that's in main
15:02:01 <tumbleweed> I don't have many endorsements, because I've had no regular sponsors. The 2/3 of the bulk sponsors endorsed me
15:02:19 <tumbleweed> the other sponsors all only sponsored one upload
15:02:43 <tumbleweed> but back to core-dev: I'd appreciate not having to go through the sponsorship process to touch main packages
15:03:00 <tumbleweed> I haven't had significant feedback from a sponsor in ages, and don't think I'm benefiting from not having direct upload rights
15:03:03 <tumbleweed> ..
15:03:53 <Laney> \o
15:04:07 <Laney> Can we learn anything from the Debian release team on how to run freezes?
15:04:18 <tumbleweed> lol
15:04:22 <Laney> re your first point of hate
15:04:25 <Laney> :-)
15:04:30 <bkerensa> :s
15:04:54 <tumbleweed> I think there are pople in debian who ignore the release team and upload big things to unstable, without coordination
15:05:01 <tumbleweed> so, that point of hate probably applies there, too
15:05:03 <Laney> For example they are almost completely opposed to us on their opinion of new packages; who's right there?
15:05:24 <tumbleweed> I think they have a far higher workload than we do
15:05:42 <tumbleweed> tehy review every diff, and prod maintainers with RC bugs continuously
15:06:02 <tumbleweed> whereas we trust our developers to only fix bugs after FF
15:06:23 <tumbleweed> I think our approach makes far more sense for our tight release cycle
15:06:29 <bdrung> where there abuses of this trust?
15:06:54 <tumbleweed> sure, there always are a few. but that's actually not a problem
15:07:10 <tumbleweed> as long as everything doesn't blow up, it worked, right?
15:07:18 <bdrung> the impact of the abuses are small enough to warrant a lightweight process?
15:07:47 <tumbleweed> yeah, exactly
15:08:21 <tumbleweed> we have a continuous stream of people coming and asking "what's the latest they can get their new shiny thing into the release" and the only sane answer is "it gets harder. try and do it before FF, but if you can't it's not the end of the world"
15:08:45 <tumbleweed> new packages have a very hard time breaking everything
15:08:56 <micahg> well, with backports on by default, that issue is less pressing
15:09:11 <tumbleweed> sure, although I beleive we have yet to test that process
15:09:45 <bdrung> is backport working well nowadays?
15:10:21 * tumbleweed isn't on the backports team, but from what I see, yes. Aside from our sbuild being ancient and not letting things B-D on backports
15:10:23 <micahg> I think it's working much better than in the past, we're mainly blocked on human reviews, but I don't think they're excessive
15:10:50 <bdrung> then i should try it again.
15:10:52 <micahg> I think we're getting a lot more backport requests for precise which is good news
15:11:18 <Laney> well, it's the best time for it
15:11:30 <Laney> we've constructed the system to make it become increasingly painful as releases go on
15:13:12 <tumbleweed> yes, but (re FFes) people still turn up very late in the cycle with things that *have to* go in
15:13:34 <tumbleweed> some of them being common sense, but big diffs
15:13:44 <micahg> yes, but the case of the FFes, people usually only want for that release, so backporting from the next dev release isn't much of an issue
15:13:50 <barry> there's nothing like a freeze or rc to motivate people to finish their work <wink>
15:13:52 <tumbleweed> and others a dependancy of the latest greatest thing that someone really wants in the release
15:15:12 <tumbleweed> micahg: if you have to put a whole stack of important-stuff in backports because it didn't make FF, that will probably mean less users
15:15:35 <tumbleweed> the big thing in the last cycle was MAAS, I don't think that could have happily ended up in backports, rather than release
15:15:47 <tumbleweed> but I also wasn't involved in approving that :)
15:17:00 <micahg> tumbleweed: does core-dev to you just mean being able to upload everywhere in the main archive?
15:17:34 <tumbleweed> micahg: well, technically, of course it does
15:17:44 <tumbleweed> but there are packages I wouldn't touch without very good reason to
15:17:46 <ScottK> tumbleweed: It's not clear it was ready to be in the archive at all (at least technically)
15:18:30 <tumbleweed> many of the core packages have someone that mostly looks after them. I'd coordinate with taht person, if at all possible
15:18:38 <tumbleweed> (someone or some team)
15:19:06 <tumbleweed> and I don't expect being a core-dev to make a major difference to what I work on, but it would allow me to scratch a few itches a little more easily
15:19:44 <tumbleweed> ScottK: which wouldn't be unsuprising for something arriving at the last minute
15:19:59 <tumbleweed> *suprising, even
15:21:47 <micahg> tumbleweed: yes, but what about the non-technical side of core-dev :)
15:22:00 <micahg> ah, you answered it
15:22:09 <tumbleweed> not entirely
15:23:04 <tumbleweed> non-technically, it also honours one as being someone who feels responsible for the entire archive, and takes a leading role in Ubuntu
15:23:30 <tumbleweed> I'd like to think that I do both of those things, even if it's a leading role in one corner of Ubuntu :)
15:23:53 <barry> tumbleweed: ubuntu is a big room with lots of corners that need sweeping :)
15:24:34 <barry> #vote grant tumbleweed ubuntu core dev membership
15:24:34 <meetingology> Please vote on: grant tumbleweed ubuntu core dev membership
15:24:34 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
15:24:39 <stgraber> +1
15:24:39 <meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
15:24:41 <bdrung> +1
15:24:41 <meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
15:24:41 <barry> +1
15:24:41 <meetingology> +1 received from barry
15:24:44 <Laney> +1
15:24:44 <meetingology> +1 received from Laney
15:24:51 <tumbleweed> \o/
15:24:53 <ScottK> tumbleweed: Congratulations.
15:25:02 <tumbleweed> ScottK: thanks
15:25:22 <Laney> \o/
15:25:24 <bdrung> tumbleweed: congrats
15:25:37 <barry> #endvote
15:25:37 <meetingology> Voting ended on: grant tumbleweed ubuntu core dev membership
15:25:37 <meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
15:25:37 <meetingology> Motion carried
15:25:48 <barry> tumbleweed: congratulations!
15:25:50 <stgraber> didn't we miss micahg?
15:26:09 <micahg> oh, sorry, got distracted, +1000 :)
15:26:15 <barry> oh whoops.
15:26:15 <tumbleweed> heh
15:26:19 <stgraber> good ;)
15:26:25 <stgraber> tumbleweed: congrats!
15:26:31 <tumbleweed> thanks everyone
15:26:48 <barry> #topic next meeting chair
15:26:58 <barry> bdrung is up next i believe
15:27:18 <bdrung> barry: nope. i was last time.
15:27:36 <barry> ah, then cody-somerville ?
15:27:53 <bdrung> yes
15:28:03 <barry> cool.
15:28:20 <bdrung> he can't veto ;)
15:28:38 <barry> #endmeeting