14:00:13 <barry> #startmeeting 14:00:13 <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jul 30 14:00:13 2012 UTC. The chair is barry. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 14:00:13 <meetingology> 14:00:13 <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired 14:00:35 <micahg> barry: starting a minute early? :) 14:00:42 <barry> hello and welcome to this week's developer membership board meeting. do we have quorum? 14:00:50 <tumbleweed> micahg: your clock is off 14:00:52 <barry> micahg: it's all relative :) 14:01:00 <barry> micahg: is in a gravitational well 14:01:17 * micahg fires up the warp engines 14:01:18 <barry> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda 14:02:05 * stgraber waves 14:02:32 * bdrung waves mechanically. 14:03:11 <barry> shall we wait a minute or two to see if Laney shows up? 14:03:17 <Laney> soryr 14:03:18 <Laney> i am here 14:03:27 <Laney> just twiddling a bug, one sec 14:03:32 <barry> yay! welcome everyone 14:03:52 <barry> #topic review of previous action items 14:04:04 <barry> micahg to document the zentyal packageset 14:04:04 <barry> 14:04:11 * micahg hides 14:04:23 <barry> continued then :) 14:04:33 <bdrung> micahg: should we dig out the last meeting logs? ;) 14:04:57 <barry> micahg to start a discussion on dmb@ about whether PPU should confer membership 14:05:00 <micahg> bdrung: no :) 14:05:06 <barry> i think that one's done, right? 14:05:07 <micahg> barry: that was done already 14:05:24 <barry> as was this one: get consensus whether upload rights should confer membership 14:05:26 <barry> ? 14:05:48 <bdrung> did we got to a consensus? 14:06:07 <micahg> no, beuno was supposed to start that discussion 14:07:05 <ScottK> Isn't that backwards? 14:07:15 <barry> micahg: does he know that? i did a quick review of my thread on that to the dmb list and see nothing about beuno 14:07:24 <ScottK> Membership has certain requirements and the question is if you can get upload rights if you don't meet those. 14:07:48 <micahg> barry: I think that was part of the CC discussion we had about 3.5 weeks ago 14:08:47 <barry> micahg: k. so i should continue this item. should i put bueno's name next to it? 14:08:58 <tumbleweed> and one of us should take an action to prod him 14:09:07 <micahg> barry: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/07/16/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t19:11 14:09:37 <bdrung> shouldn't we come to a proposed change to discuss with the CC? 14:09:39 <Laney> ScottK: backwards how? 14:09:57 <ScottK> How can giving upload rights confer membership? 14:10:12 <ScottK> Membership has certain requirements and either you meet them or you don't. 14:10:25 <barry> micahg: will you mind pinging him about it? 14:10:37 <ScottK> The question is can you have upload rights if you aren't a member/don't meet requirements. 14:10:42 <tumbleweed> membership of the ubuntu-dev LP group gives indirect membership of the ubuntu-members group 14:10:54 <ScottK> Which is a bug. 14:11:02 <micahg> barry: I suppose 14:11:03 <Laney> that's what we're cosnidering. 14:11:06 <ScottK> CC owns membership requirements, not DMB. 14:11:12 <barry> micahg: thanks 14:11:22 <micahg> scottK: depends who you ask :), that's the issue, we didn't come to a consensus before 14:11:26 <Laney> and why we're asking a CC member to start this thread ... 14:11:27 <tumbleweed> ScottK: which is why we took it to them 14:12:00 <ScottK> Ah. 14:12:00 * barry will change the action item to just the ping; and we'll let beuno and the cc take it from there 14:12:01 <tumbleweed> but in the past, we've kind of waived the "significant and sustained contributions" bit of the membership requirements, for some PPU applications 14:12:11 <tumbleweed> anyway, probably best not to have this discussion here and now :) 14:12:17 <ScottK> OK. 14:12:32 <barry> #topic Review any packageset descriptions that have been received (micahg) 14:13:01 <micahg> barry: carried, I'll try to get that rolling by the end of next month 14:13:10 <barry> micahg: thanks 14:13:17 <barry> #topic package sets 14:13:22 <barry> anything new there? 14:13:48 * barry thinks not 14:13:55 <micahg> no, no one applying 14:14:01 <bdrung> no, that's why it hasn't any subpoints 14:14:45 <barry> tumbleweed reminds me of one other action item not on the wiki page: 14:14:48 <barry> extra action item review item: Any progress on the ubuntu developers woh haven't signed the CoC? 14:16:26 <micahg> well, we get an update weekly now, but haven't yet contacted the members in question 14:16:27 <tumbleweed> sounds like the answer there is action: micahg 14:17:08 <barry> yep. micahg let us know if you want to off load some of that 14:17:24 <barry> #topic PerPackageUploader Applications 14:17:27 <micahg> ok 14:17:42 <barry> matttbe ping 14:17:46 * matttbe waves 14:17:55 <matttbe> Hello evryone! 14:18:30 <barry> matttbe: welcome. you're applying for ppu in cairo-dock cairo-doc-plug-ins and latexila, right? can you tell us something about yourself? 14:18:41 <matttbe> yes. sure! 14:18:51 <barry> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/matttbe/PerPackageUploaderApplication 14:19:03 <matttbe> Firstly, I want to apology for my "not so good" English, I hope it's readable ;) 14:19:20 <bdrung> matttbe: it was. 14:19:28 <matttbe> So... I'm Matthieu Baerts, student at UCL (in Belgium -- and no, sorry but I can't send you any Belgian beers, you'll have to come here for the next FOSDEM meeting :P ). 14:19:41 <tumbleweed> awww 14:19:54 <matttbe> I'm also a member of the Cairo-Dock team and other projects which support Free Software 14:20:03 <matttbe> (I'm a member of a LUG (LouviLug) and I joined the Louvain-li-Nux association which promotes Free Software through Ubuntu's installations, weekly supports to the community and event's organizations 2 years ago). 14:20:19 <matttbe> I've been working on Cairo-Dock packages since September 2009 and on LaTeXila packages since March 2011. 14:21:27 <matttbe> I want to apply for upload rights for Cairo-Dock and LaTeXila packages because I *think* I'm starting to "annoy" my sponsors with these 'simple' releases :) (and mainly because Andrew Starr-Bochicchio told me that it was maybe a good idea to have these rights to upload directly these packages in order to not lose time) 14:22:03 <matttbe> I think that's it :) But feel free to ask me for other things :) 14:22:33 <barry> matttbe: is there a cairo ppa and have you done any uploads to it? 14:23:03 <bdrung> matttbe: you are involved with the upstream projects and i saw that new package version closes bunches of Launchpad bugs. do you collaborate with our direct upstream Debian? 14:23:32 <Laney> There's some disagreement / difference with Debian that was supposed to get resolved IIRC 14:23:34 <matttbe> sure! 14:23:36 <matttbe> I'm a member of cairo-dock-team and I maintain these ppa: https://launchpad.net/~cairo-dock-team/+archive/ppa and https://launchpad.net/~cairo-dock-team/+archive/weekly 14:24:14 <barry> s/cairo/cairo-dock/ 14:24:15 <matttbe> + repos for Debian on http://download.tuxfamily.org/glxdock/repository/ 14:25:19 <matttbe> In fact, we have some troubles with our Debian maintainers :-/ 14:25:21 <matttbe> We already report bugs to them but it's hard to change things 14:25:42 <matttbe> (as you can see there: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cairo-dock-plugins/+bug/657564 ) 14:25:44 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 657564 in cairo-dock-plugins (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Duplicated package with cairo-dock-plugins (coming from Debian)" [Undecided,Confirmed] 14:26:55 <matttbe> They decided to split all our plugins but it's hard to maintain that (there are a few dependences), they also add useless dependences and made 1 or 2 wrong patches but now it's a bit better ;) 14:27:03 <bdrung> matttbe: have you tried to join the Debian Cairo-dock Maintainers team and do your packaging work in their git repositories? 14:27:43 <matttbe> yes, I did it but they don't want to have the same packages than what we have in Ubuntu 14:28:28 <bdrung> matttbe: is there no way to come to a consensus? 14:29:19 <micahg> matttbe: as long as they add the appropriate interdependencies and have a meta package to install all the plugins, what's the issue? 14:29:35 <matttbe> I know that it's an annoying problem but with other members of Cairo-Dock team, we already tried. This is now better and I think we can say that there is no way to come to a consensus about these dependences 14:30:34 <micahg> matttbe: can you give an example of a "useless dependency"? 14:30:58 <matttbe> micahg: yes, now they have a meta package but no appropriate interdependencies (and if you install Cairo-Dock on Debian, it will install thunar-data, kde stuff, etc. which are just useless if you're using Gnome) 14:32:10 <tumbleweed> have bugs been filed in debian about this? 14:32:43 <matttbe> (cairo-dock package depends of cairo-dock-plugins meta package which depends of cairo-dock-xfce-integration-plug-in package which install thunar dependences) 14:32:50 <matttbe> tumbleweed: yes of course 14:34:17 <matttbe> tumbleweed: on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cairo-dock-plugins/+bug/657564 and there I think: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=493736 14:34:19 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 657564 in cairo-dock-plugins (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Duplicated package with cairo-dock-plugins (coming from Debian)" [Undecided,Confirmed] 14:34:20 <ubottu> Debian bug 493736 in wnpp "ITP: cairo-dock -- An light eye-candy fully themable animated dock for any Linux desktop" [Wishlist,Fixed] 14:34:20 <bdrung> matttbe: i can't see an open bug report for that in the BTS 14:34:24 <micahg> matttbe: actually, it seems the meta package isn't pulled in by the -plugins package 14:34:50 <matttbe> (and also on our forums) 14:35:02 <micahg> the integration meta I mean 14:35:04 <matttbe> maybe I should re-open a new bug report... 14:35:13 <micahg> matttbe: I think the issue has been solved 14:35:33 <matttbe> micahg: oh, maybe, good news :) 14:36:47 <barry> do we have any other questions for matttbe? 14:36:47 <micahg> matttbe: have you considered levering the backports pocket to provide stable updates? 14:36:55 <micahg> *leveraging 14:37:37 <matttbe> micahg: except that now, it doesn't install any -integration plug-ins (for a better integration in Gnome, XFCE, KDE and other DE which use gvfs) :) 14:38:04 <micahg> matttbe: right, you could suggest an alternate Recommends with a sane default maybe 14:39:02 <matttbe> micahg: I don't understand your question, sorry. Did you mean that it can be good to backport stable update? 14:39:41 <micahg> matttbe: yes, backports is enabled by default since oneiric 14:40:15 <micahg> matttbe: you might want to look at the requestbackport tool in ubuntu-dev-tools in precise and later 14:41:01 <matttbe> micahg: ok, thank you. I'll have a look to this tool 14:42:05 <bdrung> matttbe: i recommend to look at the wrap-and-sort tool (in devscripts and ubuntu-dev-tools previously) 14:42:58 <matttbe> bdrung: oh, nice tool (as many other but there are a lot of tools like that :) ) 14:43:02 <matttbe> thank you 14:44:51 <bdrung> matttbe: i saw that indicator-applet 0.5.0-0ubuntu2 failed to build (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-applet/0.5.0-0ubuntu2). how could that happen and what are you doing to prevent this to happen in the future? 14:46:25 <matttbe> bdrung: Yes, I thought that it was enough to only test the modification in the apport hook :) 14:46:27 <matttbe> But next time, I'll build the new version with pbuilder 14:47:07 <matttbe> bdrung: but I fixed the bug in the next version and report the problem to indicator-applet devs 14:48:21 <bdrung> matttbe: better be save than sorry. the build failure was introduced by a glib change and not by you. that's why test building should be always done before uploading. 14:49:08 <stgraber> matttbe: are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce@lists.ubuntu.com and read it at least daily? 14:49:57 <matttbe> stgraber: I'm subscribed recently :) 14:51:31 <matttbe> (stgraber: I'll read it at least daily but currently I only received maximum one or two messages) 14:51:49 <stgraber> yeah, it's very low trafic but very important messages 14:52:09 <stgraber> so should be read pretty quickly after something new is posted to it (like the freeze announcements) 14:52:16 <bdrung> matttbe: it's good to check that before doing an upload (e.g. for freeze notifications) 14:53:07 <matttbe> bdrung: ok, I'll do that. (and I've also bookmarked this link: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule ) 14:53:13 <barry> #voters barry bdrung Laney micahg tumbleweed stgraber cody-somerville 14:53:13 <meetingology> Current voters: Laney barry bdrung cody-somerville micahg stgraber tumbleweed 14:53:54 <barry> #vote grant matttbe ppu rights to cairo-dock cairo-dock-plug-ins latexila 14:53:54 <meetingology> Please vote on: grant matttbe ppu rights to cairo-dock cairo-dock-plug-ins latexila 14:53:54 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 14:54:50 <tumbleweed> +1 [ and I'd like to see these packages eventually get in sync with debian ] 14:54:50 <meetingology> +1 [ and I'd like to see these packages eventually get in sync with debian ] received from tumbleweed 14:54:50 <bdrung> +1 please work with the Debian maintainers to reduce the diff between Debian and Ubuntu 14:54:50 <meetingology> +1 please work with the Debian maintainers to reduce the diff between Debian and Ubuntu received from bdrung 14:55:33 <barry> +1 i would also like to see you work toward an eventual sync w/debian 14:55:33 <meetingology> +1 i would also like to see you work toward an eventual sync w/debian received from barry 14:55:35 <stgraber> +1 14:55:35 <meetingology> +1 received from stgraber 14:55:43 <micahg> +0 good work overall, would like to see more integration with Debian (it seems all the issues have been addressed) 14:55:43 <meetingology> +0 good work overall, would like to see more integration with Debian (it seems all the issues have been addressed) received from micahg 14:55:46 <Laney> +0 sorry have been distracted 14:55:46 <meetingology> +0 sorry have been distracted received from Laney 14:56:09 <matttbe> tumbleweed, bdrung, barry: yes, you're right. I'll re-contact Cairo-Dock Debian team! 14:56:32 <micahg> err...+1 14:56:35 <matttbe> (BTW I see that I'm still a member of this team ^^ https://alioth.debian.org/projects/pkg-cairo-dock/ ) 14:57:03 <bdrung> matttbe: i recommend to work with them in their git repository and merge the Ubuntu changes step by step (starting with the easy bits) 14:57:35 <matttbe> bdrung: ok, I'll try to do that! 14:58:12 <micahg> +1 14:58:12 <meetingology> +1 received from micahg 14:58:16 <barry> #endvote 14:58:16 <meetingology> Voting ended on: grant matttbe ppu rights to cairo-dock cairo-dock-plug-ins latexila 14:58:16 <meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1 14:58:16 <meetingology> Motion carried 14:58:26 <barry> matttbe: congratulations! 14:58:27 <bdrung> matttbe: in most cases it is a pleasant experience to work with Debian Developers 14:58:42 <matttbe> Thanks all! 14:59:14 <matttbe> bdrung: yes, sure I also want to have "better" packages in Debian but... I'll try :) 14:59:24 <matttbe> Also I've two tiny questions: about Ubuntu Membership and the previous discussions, should I do something more to have this membership? 14:59:32 <barry> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer Applications 14:59:40 <tumbleweed> you'll get automatic membership, as things stand ATM 14:59:56 <matttbe> tumbleweed: ok, thank you :) 15:00:04 <barry> tumbleweed: welcome! you are applying to ubuntu core developer. do you want to introduce yourself? :) 15:00:15 <micahg> matttbe: try to keep in mind, it might be possible to satisfy your wants/needs as well of those of the other Debian packagers 15:00:22 <tumbleweed> barry: sure. I'll try and be quick, and we're already out of time 15:00:29 <barry> thanks 15:00:42 <tumbleweed> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StefanoRivera/CoreDevApplication 15:00:48 <tumbleweed> meh, meetingology doesn't like me 15:00:51 <tumbleweed> anyway 15:01:06 <tumbleweed> you had better all know me, I serve on this board :) 15:01:06 * barry thinks #links aren't working 15:01:27 <tumbleweed> so, I mostly do universe stuff, but occasionally touch something that's in main 15:02:01 <tumbleweed> I don't have many endorsements, because I've had no regular sponsors. The 2/3 of the bulk sponsors endorsed me 15:02:19 <tumbleweed> the other sponsors all only sponsored one upload 15:02:43 <tumbleweed> but back to core-dev: I'd appreciate not having to go through the sponsorship process to touch main packages 15:03:00 <tumbleweed> I haven't had significant feedback from a sponsor in ages, and don't think I'm benefiting from not having direct upload rights 15:03:03 <tumbleweed> .. 15:03:53 <Laney> \o 15:04:07 <Laney> Can we learn anything from the Debian release team on how to run freezes? 15:04:18 <tumbleweed> lol 15:04:22 <Laney> re your first point of hate 15:04:25 <Laney> :-) 15:04:30 <bkerensa> :s 15:04:54 <tumbleweed> I think there are pople in debian who ignore the release team and upload big things to unstable, without coordination 15:05:01 <tumbleweed> so, that point of hate probably applies there, too 15:05:03 <Laney> For example they are almost completely opposed to us on their opinion of new packages; who's right there? 15:05:24 <tumbleweed> I think they have a far higher workload than we do 15:05:42 <tumbleweed> tehy review every diff, and prod maintainers with RC bugs continuously 15:06:02 <tumbleweed> whereas we trust our developers to only fix bugs after FF 15:06:23 <tumbleweed> I think our approach makes far more sense for our tight release cycle 15:06:29 <bdrung> where there abuses of this trust? 15:06:54 <tumbleweed> sure, there always are a few. but that's actually not a problem 15:07:10 <tumbleweed> as long as everything doesn't blow up, it worked, right? 15:07:18 <bdrung> the impact of the abuses are small enough to warrant a lightweight process? 15:07:47 <tumbleweed> yeah, exactly 15:08:21 <tumbleweed> we have a continuous stream of people coming and asking "what's the latest they can get their new shiny thing into the release" and the only sane answer is "it gets harder. try and do it before FF, but if you can't it's not the end of the world" 15:08:45 <tumbleweed> new packages have a very hard time breaking everything 15:08:56 <micahg> well, with backports on by default, that issue is less pressing 15:09:11 <tumbleweed> sure, although I beleive we have yet to test that process 15:09:45 <bdrung> is backport working well nowadays? 15:10:21 * tumbleweed isn't on the backports team, but from what I see, yes. Aside from our sbuild being ancient and not letting things B-D on backports 15:10:23 <micahg> I think it's working much better than in the past, we're mainly blocked on human reviews, but I don't think they're excessive 15:10:50 <bdrung> then i should try it again. 15:10:52 <micahg> I think we're getting a lot more backport requests for precise which is good news 15:11:18 <Laney> well, it's the best time for it 15:11:30 <Laney> we've constructed the system to make it become increasingly painful as releases go on 15:13:12 <tumbleweed> yes, but (re FFes) people still turn up very late in the cycle with things that *have to* go in 15:13:34 <tumbleweed> some of them being common sense, but big diffs 15:13:44 <micahg> yes, but the case of the FFes, people usually only want for that release, so backporting from the next dev release isn't much of an issue 15:13:50 <barry> there's nothing like a freeze or rc to motivate people to finish their work <wink> 15:13:52 <tumbleweed> and others a dependancy of the latest greatest thing that someone really wants in the release 15:15:12 <tumbleweed> micahg: if you have to put a whole stack of important-stuff in backports because it didn't make FF, that will probably mean less users 15:15:35 <tumbleweed> the big thing in the last cycle was MAAS, I don't think that could have happily ended up in backports, rather than release 15:15:47 <tumbleweed> but I also wasn't involved in approving that :) 15:17:00 <micahg> tumbleweed: does core-dev to you just mean being able to upload everywhere in the main archive? 15:17:34 <tumbleweed> micahg: well, technically, of course it does 15:17:44 <tumbleweed> but there are packages I wouldn't touch without very good reason to 15:17:46 <ScottK> tumbleweed: It's not clear it was ready to be in the archive at all (at least technically) 15:18:30 <tumbleweed> many of the core packages have someone that mostly looks after them. I'd coordinate with taht person, if at all possible 15:18:38 <tumbleweed> (someone or some team) 15:19:06 <tumbleweed> and I don't expect being a core-dev to make a major difference to what I work on, but it would allow me to scratch a few itches a little more easily 15:19:44 <tumbleweed> ScottK: which wouldn't be unsuprising for something arriving at the last minute 15:19:59 <tumbleweed> *suprising, even 15:21:47 <micahg> tumbleweed: yes, but what about the non-technical side of core-dev :) 15:22:00 <micahg> ah, you answered it 15:22:09 <tumbleweed> not entirely 15:23:04 <tumbleweed> non-technically, it also honours one as being someone who feels responsible for the entire archive, and takes a leading role in Ubuntu 15:23:30 <tumbleweed> I'd like to think that I do both of those things, even if it's a leading role in one corner of Ubuntu :) 15:23:53 <barry> tumbleweed: ubuntu is a big room with lots of corners that need sweeping :) 15:24:34 <barry> #vote grant tumbleweed ubuntu core dev membership 15:24:34 <meetingology> Please vote on: grant tumbleweed ubuntu core dev membership 15:24:34 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 15:24:39 <stgraber> +1 15:24:39 <meetingology> +1 received from stgraber 15:24:41 <bdrung> +1 15:24:41 <meetingology> +1 received from bdrung 15:24:41 <barry> +1 15:24:41 <meetingology> +1 received from barry 15:24:44 <Laney> +1 15:24:44 <meetingology> +1 received from Laney 15:24:51 <tumbleweed> \o/ 15:24:53 <ScottK> tumbleweed: Congratulations. 15:25:02 <tumbleweed> ScottK: thanks 15:25:22 <Laney> \o/ 15:25:24 <bdrung> tumbleweed: congrats 15:25:37 <barry> #endvote 15:25:37 <meetingology> Voting ended on: grant tumbleweed ubuntu core dev membership 15:25:37 <meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 15:25:37 <meetingology> Motion carried 15:25:48 <barry> tumbleweed: congratulations! 15:25:50 <stgraber> didn't we miss micahg? 15:26:09 <micahg> oh, sorry, got distracted, +1000 :) 15:26:15 <barry> oh whoops. 15:26:15 <tumbleweed> heh 15:26:19 <stgraber> good ;) 15:26:25 <stgraber> tumbleweed: congrats! 15:26:31 <tumbleweed> thanks everyone 15:26:48 <barry> #topic next meeting chair 15:26:58 <barry> bdrung is up next i believe 15:27:18 <bdrung> barry: nope. i was last time. 15:27:36 <barry> ah, then cody-somerville ? 15:27:53 <bdrung> yes 15:28:03 <barry> cool. 15:28:20 <bdrung> he can't veto ;) 15:28:38 <barry> #endmeeting