15:02:04 #startmeeting 15:02:04 Meeting started Thu Feb 23 15:02:04 2012 UTC. The chair is NCommander. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. 15:02:04 15:02:04 Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired 15:02:09 Sorry, wasn't looking at the clock 15:02:11 ah 15:02:11 hi 15:02:21 * davidm waves at NCommander 15:02:23 who's here 15:02:28 * med_ waves 15:02:31 * ogra_ sneezes 15:02:31 o/ 15:02:37 \o 15:02:55 So 15:02:58 do we wnat need an agenda today ? 15:03:02 * GrueMaster meh 15:03:04 Not really 15:03:10 [topic] Important Annoucement 15:04:04 As part of an effort to keep ARM development more inline with the rest of the ubuntu community, the ARM team is intergrating directly into the platform team 15:04:18 :O 15:04:29 * ppisati wasn't aware 15:04:44 ppisati: there was a reason I said it was the final meeting on the reminder 15:04:45 i would actually like to propose to still have arm meetings to coordinate arm work ... not as frequent, not with burndown etc but occasionally (i.e. once a month or every two or on whatever schedule) to get people doing the arm work in ubuntu to talk ... 15:05:08 [vote] Continue ARM meetings? 15:05:08 Please vote on: Continue ARM meetings? 15:05:08 Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) 15:05:14 +1 15:05:14 +1 received from ppisati 15:05:21 But I like the broken burndown chart. 15:05:23 +1 15:05:23 +1 received from med_ 15:05:25 +1 15:05:25 +1 received from rbasak 15:05:25 +1 (since i proposed it) 15:05:25 +1 (since i proposed it) received from ogra_ 15:05:28 +1 15:05:28 +1 received from GrueMaster 15:05:34 ogra_: you broke the bot 15:05:44 +1 15:05:44 +1 received from NCommander 15:05:55 NCommander, how could i ? :) 15:06:01 10:05:26 < meetingology> +1 (since i proposed it) received from ogra_ 15:06:04 Who is going to host the meetings? 15:06:28 * NCommander looks at the person who proposed it 15:06:28 Good question 15:06:32 * rbasak nominates davidm :-) 15:06:37 ogra_, it just wants +1 0 or -1 on a line nothing else 15:06:45 #endvote 15:06:45 Voting ended on: Continue ARM meetings? 15:06:45 Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 15:06:45 Motion carried 15:06:51 rbasak, not sure what I'll be doing going forward 15:07:15 So it needs to be someone else 15:07:17 davidm, nah, we use the comment feature in every rmb meeting to comment on people we vorte for 15:07:34 * ogra_ will do it then, we can rotate it or so 15:07:35 So we'll continue the meetings in some form, not sure how often or when 15:07:43 [action] ogra to determine new meeting schedule 15:07:43 * meetingology ogra to determine new meeting schedule 15:07:58 infinity, proposal was to still have arm coordination meetings at a looser schedule and with less agenda 15:08:06 I'm not convinced we need meetings for the sake of meetings. 15:08:19 * NCommander proposes we have a meeting to discuss meetings 15:08:27 >:-) 15:08:31 infinity, no,. for the sake of communitcation of people working on arm stuff 15:08:52 it shouldnt be strict and optional anyway 15:08:59 We have to be careful with a loose schedule though 15:09:03 The risk is that it stops happening 15:09:04 ogra_: Well, the idea here is that people should instead be communicating about "kernel stuff" or "desktop stuff" (etc). We don't have "amd64 meetings". 15:09:14 just to give an opportunity to communicate on arm specific tasks 15:09:33 hmm, true indeed 15:09:39 nor do we have ppc ones 15:09:41 ie: If you have an arm kernel issue, being it up in the kernel-team meeting. 15:09:48 s/being/bring/ 15:10:00 Here's the official meeting calendar 15:10:01 http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/fridge/ 15:10:13 Server team is 16:00 UTC on Tuesdays 15:10:17 infinity, though there was a vote before you joined, and that looked like there might still be demand 15:10:22 ]Kernel is 17:00 UTC on Tuesday 15:10:29 Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 15:10:53 We don't need "amd64 meetings" because everyone is de-facto amd64. We need arm meetings because most people are still developing against non-arm, IMHO. 15:10:54 * ogra_ would like to hear from the people that +1'ed if they could get along with that 15:10:54 I propose a discussion period before nostalgia-based voting biases kick in. ;) 15:11:07 i definitely can, since i'll be there anyway :) 15:11:07 rbasak: Right, but that's what we're trying to change. 15:11:21 rbasak: And it won't change if we keep having ARM stuff in separate meetings. 15:11:22 rbasak, infinity is right here 15:11:25 you could always have a rotating chair 15:11:44 victorp, right, i would just have kicked it off 15:12:01 with chair nominations at the end of every meeting 15:12:15 infinity: we're not in a position to change it, IMHO, because it's based on what hardware engineers are using on their own machines. Until ARM/Intel reach a 50/50 split on that, ARM will be the minority and those working on it need to have a focus 15:12:42 rbasak: Yeah, that's kinda the attitude we're trying to kill here. That's my point. :) 15:12:53 rbasak: People should care about it, even if it's not their laptop's arch. 15:13:05 rbasak, unless you count their phone 15:13:07 rbasak: And if it's not discussed in open channels and "normal" teams, that won't happen. 15:13:07 I'm sure they do care about it 15:13:19 * ogra_ uses arm 24/7 on his lappie :) 15:13:28 I would suggest that keeping this meeting going forward for at least until the next cycle 15:13:32 * NCommander has an arm (and two legs) 15:13:36 and then re-review it at uds? 15:13:42 I'm not saying that we shouldn't integrate with "normal" teams. I'm saying that ARM-specific issues that come up from there should be collaborated on in once place. 15:13:47 *one place 15:14:02 victorp: +1 15:14:12 rbasak: Perhaps. Generally, kernel people don't attend desktop meetings for a reason, though. :) 15:14:20 (And most of us hate duplicated work/meetings) 15:14:28 infinity, doesnt mean we cant do both 15:14:31 But yeah, keeping the status quo for a little longer while we integrate won't kill us. 15:14:40 infinity, prob here is that we dont have an arm person in every team atm 15:14:51 else i would fully agree 15:14:55 for certification we have a meeting to cover cert and then we have a person attending the kernel meeting to raise issues there too 15:15:03 but there is likely arm work that has to be done cross team atm 15:15:14 ogra_: It's not (ultimately) about having "arm people" on every team, but having every team actually work on ARM. 15:15:23 infinity, isnt a bit like QA 15:15:29 infinity: No one is forcing you to attend either. 15:15:33 how would they do that without HW or knowledge about the HW 15:15:41 everyone does its own qa - there is still a qa meeting to discuss common things? 15:15:43 GrueMaster, ++ 15:15:46 We did have a PowerPC for a long time. 15:15:50 The HW is almost never necessary, except for kernel and installer hacking. 15:15:53 er 15:15:53 wow 15:15:55 grammar fail 15:16:02 GrueMaster, that is the attitude - lol 15:16:02 Anyhow. 15:16:18 I'll withdraw my objections for now. But I'm working on integration here in the long run. 15:16:19 as i said before, optional, less frequent 15:16:31 PowerPC had a dedicated channel that people could go for porting help. We have #ubuntu-arm for much the same purpose 15:16:38 once a month should suffice surely 15:16:45 infinity, can you take an action to setup a discussion at UDS around this? 15:17:14 since you do have valid points - if I take the action it will never happen 15:17:17 :( 15:17:29 victorp: Will do. 15:17:39 victorp: Rick's already tasked me informally with more or less the same thing. :P 15:17:45 [action] infinity to discuss ARM meeting existance at UDS 15:17:45 * meetingology infinity to discuss ARM meeting existance at UDS 15:17:58 great minds and all that 15:18:01 (Though less about meetings, and more about deeper integration) 15:18:30 integration can largely be solved with large amounts of beer and duct tape 15:18:37 I'm for continuing the meetings but not so much for status quo but rather to help with the transition to the new org and build cross team cooperation. 15:19:14 To be fair, cross-team cooperation already exists, ARM's just not seen it as much, because we've been in our own weird bubble. 15:19:23 ++ 15:19:25 Scatter us to the winds, and we might see how the rest of the distro works. ;) 15:19:39 Yeh, cooperation wasn't the right word. 15:19:41 they will forward their probs to linaro then :P 15:19:49 instead of us 15:19:56 Anyhow. Moving on. I'll make sure this all gets solid discussion at UDS. 15:20:00 And I'll bring blunt objects. 15:20:03 Or wiffle bats. 15:20:16 k, so should i still schedule it in a month from now ? 15:20:21 yes 15:20:35 ok 15:20:52 * rbasak votes two weeks 15:21:02 (will only be 3 or 4 meetings until UDS anyway on that schedule) 15:21:06 ogra_: You could even register a foundations-uds-q-arm-integration (or whatever the right format is) blueprint, and assign it to me. ;) 15:21:07 Yeh, I'd like more frequently than monthly for now myself. 15:21:12 IS there any action items from last week that should be reviewed before just dropping the old agenda? 15:21:36 The point being that we don't know how it'll go. If there's persistently little to discuss, we could make it less frequent then, but going in the other direction involves a long wait. 15:21:39 infinity, feel free to create it :) 15:22:13 ogra_: I was hoping I could trick you into being my personal assistant. I'll set it up. 15:22:14 NCommander, any actions from last week ? 15:22:24 * NCommander checks 15:22:28 infinity, lol, then you have to say so ! 15:22:40 just ask and you will be served :P 15:23:03 [topic] rsalveti to follow with riku to see if chromium will get fixed 15:23:18 (we have to talk about the amount of salary you have to transfer indeed ) 15:23:23 micahg: What's the latest on chromium? 15:23:31 it built ! 15:23:36 does it run? 15:23:39 * ogra_ got it with a dist-upgrade today 15:23:43 didnt try 15:23:47 ogra_: best try :-). 15:23:50 just saw the package passing by 15:23:51 Wait, it built? 15:23:54 not now 15:23:54 I remember openoffice built, but didn't run 15:24:11 No, chromium's still broken on armhf. 15:24:12 will do when i dont actually use this machine :) 15:24:20 oh, crap i run el here 15:24:29 but even that is a novum 15:24:33 Some multiarch annoyance. 15:24:40 it didnt buold on any arm for years 15:25:11 I'll work with micahg to see if we can resolve that. 15:25:28 i'll test after the meeting if it actually runs on my tegra 15:25:40 * ogra_ has all ram used up atm 15:26:43 janimo`: Oh hai. 15:26:46 heh 15:26:52 I forgot what the itme was 15:26:56 and noone pinged me! 15:27:05 and hi :) 15:27:11 we just assumed your mic was broken 15:27:17 funny guy 15:27:17 * GrueMaster hasn't seen an itme in a while. 15:27:19 oh, wait that was the other meeting :P 15:27:31 NCommander: Was there anything else from last meeting? 15:27:39 GrueMaster, did you say 'itme? 15:27:42 [topic] rsalveti to follow with koen at ELC to see if we'll get armhf drivers for sgx (omap3) 15:27:44 I would if I were near you 15:28:02 NCommander: how about omap4? 15:28:08 ppisati, in the works 15:28:10 he'll be publishing the drivers in the following weeks 15:28:11 ok 15:28:12 hope still in time for the release 15:28:14 with a ffe 15:28:15 waiting for ndecs team 15:28:57 rsalveti: Given that armel is unsupported, and armhf doesn't have the driver, the FFe will be a no-brainer. 15:29:06 yeah 15:29:08 rsalveti: But have them talk to me about it when it's time. 15:29:18 FFe to include the driver for armhf 15:29:29 Yeah, like I said, no-brainer. 15:29:48 Hardware enablement FFes are more closely tied to kernel freeze, which is quite a way out. 15:29:58 At least, IMO. 15:30:07 that's fine then :_) 15:30:09 :-) 15:30:29 is there an action item to ping nvidia about tegra-armhf or it happens whenever they get to it? 15:30:46 good question 15:30:48 I talked with a few nvidia folks at elc 15:30:50 so ac100 is not the only armel image 15:30:53 A few different people talked to nvidia engineers at Connect. 15:30:56 And ELC, apparently. :P 15:30:56 they said the have the armhf driver internally 15:31:01 And yeah, that. 15:31:11 guess we just need to ping the folks to make it available for us 15:31:15 The Engineers are building them, the release managers haven't let them be set free yet. 15:31:17 then they should just open the gates 15:31:29 Red tape ahoy. 15:31:33 heh 15:32:05 well, with the current xorg ABI i get green bg on notification bubbles and the panel fonts look like rainbows 15:32:06 * janimo` : look for tegra-armhf drivers on thepiratebay.org 15:32:11 camnt be worse i guess 15:32:35 oh, and firefox CSS is acting up too 15:33:07 o it would be good to have something new for release 15:33:08 well the driver itself is still buggy but at least it should not hold up armhf images taking over 15:33:18 yeah 15:34:04 and for imx53 we're still waiting feedback from freescale 15:34:06 but with xorg updates it got a lot more buggy over the last weeks 15:34:13 seems we can have the drivers, but we can't distribute them 15:34:23 so, useless :-) 15:34:26 so i dont even know if it makes sense to keep artmel around for ac100 15:34:30 *armel 15:34:33 rsalveti, was that not the case even before with mx53? 15:34:39 rsalveti: Yeah, I'd love to be able to, but such is life. :/ 15:34:49 janimo`: yeah 15:35:04 even with imx51 (babbage) we had that 15:35:12 rsalveti: Anyone working on the usb issue with the imx53 Start-R rev? 15:35:13 but anmar is working hard at linaro to make freescale to release a distributable driver 15:35:37 GrueMaster: not atm, unfortunately 15:35:40 GrueMaster: have the bug? 15:35:42 rsalveti: I suppose if someone has some spare time they wanted to waste, they could design an installer package that required the user to first download the tarball from Freescale. 15:35:44 the team is focused on imx6 15:36:15 I'll file a bug later today. Everytime I got ready to file one before, I was told to wait as a new kernel was coming. 15:36:21 infinity: that would probably work, just need someone with some spare time to do the magic script 15:36:35 GrueMaster: please open it and let me know about the bug number 15:36:42 will forward it to the LT 15:37:05 rsalveti: Yeah, probably not worth the time, but if someone's feeling like a keener on private/community time. 15:37:41 yeah 15:38:50 oh, btw is anyone sending out a more official announcement that the arm dem wont exist anymore ... or is NCommander's note that this was the final meeting enough ? 15:38:56 s/dem/team/ 15:39:01 * ogra_ glares at his fingers 15:39:31 Sorry, power interruption 15:39:38 cable model takes a good five minutes to powercycle 15:39:41 *modem 15:40:18 ogra_: I can drop a second email to ubuntu-armel announcing the former disillusion of the team. 15:40:31 ogra_: I think we'll want to wait a week or three until we have a better idea of the state of things. 15:40:36 the LP group though shoul dstill be subscribed so ARM related bugs can be easily felt 15:40:41 infinity: fair enough 15:40:46 infinity, yeah, sounds sane 15:41:02 I'd like to send something more formal to ubuntu-announce in a while, but I want to make sure it's carefully worded to be positive, rather than panic-inducing. 15:41:15 NCommander: Actually, tags are the preferred method for bugs. 15:41:20 infinity, ++ 15:41:30 and also blessed by managers7teamleads 15:41:51 ogra_: Yeahp. 15:42:30 ogra_: I've been talking with Rick and Steve about what this all "means" for platform/Ubuntu, so I might take an action item here to draft up a formal announcement and get it reviewed and rubber-stamped. 15:42:45 k 15:42:47 But, like I said, I think it should wait a couple weeks. 15:42:47 anyway 15:42:52 I have one final announcement 15:42:52 having a group can still be useful as we have people that only cares about arm atm 15:42:57 like the folks working with linaro 15:43:09 so easier to parse the bugs and such, but guess that a tag would also be useful 15:43:11 rsalveti: The LP group and ubuntu-arm channel are still valuable, IMO. 15:43:17 rsalveti, the ubuntu-arm LP team will still exist 15:43:20 great then 15:43:25 :-) 15:43:33 we already share it across different teams 15:43:56 (which made our burndown chart look funny in the past) 15:44:35 * ogra_ has nothing anymore 15:45:03 good news everyone 15:45:08 armadaxp netboot images are up 15:45:19 NCommander: \o/ 15:45:20 yay 15:45:20 \o/ 15:45:25 great 15:45:27 woot 15:45:38 when will we see alternates ? 15:45:47 it even should reboot on its own now too! 15:45:54 ogra_: wasn't planning on buildin gthem 15:46:11 Kinda pointless when the bootloader can't load from USB 15:46:16 oh, i thought you did 15:46:25 it might be able to btw 15:46:27 I was waiting until we got a fixed bootloader from Marvell 15:46:36 mahmoh: did that get magically fixed cause I couldn't get it to work 15:46:37 ah, indeed 15:46:58 if you tried a powered usb device then no 15:47:35 mahmoh: We tried a usb stick at the rally. 15:47:43 and a SD card too 15:48:02 sd didn't work?! 15:48:21 If it did, we wouldn't be having this discussion. 15:48:34 heh 15:49:19 Anyway 15:49:22 I think its time to close 15:49:26 well reboot now works and there's a bug for unmount hanging 15:49:26 One final annoucement 15:49:28 At any rate, we have 12 minutes left, and I have no idea where in the agenda we are anymore. 15:49:31 I would just like to say 15:49:37 So long, and thanks for all the fish 15:49:39 GrueMaster, which agenda ? 15:49:39 #endmeeting