17:04:03 <beuno> #startmeeting
17:04:03 <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 17 17:04:03 2011 UTC.  The chair is beuno. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
17:04:03 <meetingology> 
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17:04:51 <beuno> there's no proposed topics on the wiki
17:04:58 <YokoZar> I have something to report
17:05:05 <dholbach> and I wanted to share a quick reminder
17:05:08 <czajkowski> cool
17:05:48 <beuno> YokoZar, go for it
17:06:09 <YokoZar> Right, at UDS I was tasked with investigating the voting system
17:06:35 <YokoZar> Briefly, 1) We need to pick an actual algorithm to use, and 2) We need a tie-breaking procedure
17:07:20 <sabdfl> i thought (1) was condorcet
17:07:27 <sabdfl> and (2) was one of the CIVS options
17:07:34 <YokoZar> For 1), the Shulze method (first in the list on CIVS) is the clear answer: it's what Debian and Wikimedia use, amid others, and it's a sound algorithm.  You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_Method
17:07:47 <YokoZar> sabdfl: there are multiple condorcet methods (indeed CIVS lists 4 of them)
17:07:54 <sabdfl> ah, right, tiebreaking when even Condorcet-Shultze ties
17:08:16 <YokoZar> Right, which is indeed what happened between 2nd and 3rd place in the IRCC election
17:09:07 <YokoZar> As far as tie-breaking is concerned, that's actually not handled by CIVS.
17:09:16 <beuno> #topic voting algorithm for board elections and tie-breaking procedure
17:09:40 <dholbach> Do we know how other projects deal with cases like this?
17:10:05 <czajkowski> YokoZar: so are you suggesting/recommending that going forth we use the Shulze method
17:10:09 <YokoZar> dholbach: I'm not sure what Debian's tie-breaking procedures are, if they even have them.  It really is a freak occurance
17:10:18 <YokoZar> czajkowski: Yes, I'm saying we make it official somewhere
17:10:28 <czajkowski> YokoZar: ok makes sense to be honest as I'
17:10:36 <czajkowski> m sure it gets asked the whole time
17:10:39 <dholbach> I'd suggest to document it on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Restaffing
17:10:46 <dholbach> I have no objections about using it
17:10:49 <beuno> ey use this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloneproof_Schwartz_Sequential_Dropping
17:10:56 <YokoZar> beuno: it's the same
17:11:01 <beuno> (according to http://www.debian.org/vote/)
17:11:09 <YokoZar> beuno: (two names for same method)
17:11:22 <YokoZar> In fact that wikipedia page is a redirect ;)
17:11:40 <sabdfl> very simply, this is our discretion, and how we decide is up to us
17:11:44 <YokoZar> dholbach: I'll look into if Debian has a true tie resolution procedure
17:11:55 <sabdfl> i prefer consensus, but if we vote, there is a casting vote so we never get stuck
17:12:18 <YokoZar> sabdfl: Right, I was just going to suggest we resolve ties by just looking at your ballot and if you rank A > B and there is a tie between A and B, A now beats B
17:12:21 <sabdfl> remember, the mandate stems from us; we poll to get mutual buy-in on delegation, but it is in fact delegation
17:12:37 <sabdfl> who's ballot?
17:13:21 <sabdfl> i don't need or want to be the direct decider on those; we should discuss them, see if we have general agreement, and if not then just vote
17:13:35 <YokoZar> Ok so you would defer a true tie to the CC then
17:14:08 <sabdfl> yes; it's our delegation, we've polled the relevant group in the community, they've said they're equally happy with two candidates we shortlisted, we can choose
17:14:16 <dholbach> sabdfl's argument makes sense and it should be corner cases, I just think we should document it, so it's clear to everybody involved
17:14:25 <sabdfl> agreed
17:14:36 <YokoZar> That's fine by me.  Our other two options would be 1) Just using sabdfl's vote as a casting vote in the actual election, and 2) Doing something pseudorandom
17:14:40 <czajkowski> aye as dholbach said documentaion would be the key here so everyone knows and is on the same page
17:14:47 <sabdfl> note to ourselves, though, is that we should exercise real discretion in the shortlisting
17:15:01 <sabdfl> i do with TB and CC, and we should do the same in the delegation
17:15:09 <beuno> so we use Schwartz as an algorithm, and tie-breaks get discussed and decided upon by the CC, yes?
17:15:10 <sabdfl> nobody should be on the shortlist that does not have our full support
17:15:16 <sabdfl> otherwise we're not doing our job
17:15:23 <sabdfl> beuno, +1
17:15:32 <czajkowski> beuno: +1
17:15:46 <YokoZar> beuno: Yes, +1.  Though I think we should be consistent in calling it Shulze (that seems to be what Wikipedia has settled on, as well as the Elections-Methods mailing list)
17:16:00 <beuno> #action update wiki pages describing the algorithm and tie-breaking methods used
17:16:00 * meetingology update wiki pages describing the algorithm and tie-breaking methods used
17:16:03 <dholbach> +1, that works for me
17:16:15 <czajkowski> YokoZar: thanks for looking into this
17:16:18 <Gwaihir> +1 for me too, sounds fine
17:16:26 <akgraner> +1 from me as well
17:16:41 <beuno> ok, dholbach, you're up
17:16:43 <dholbach> This is the first time we are doing this, but I would like to remind everybody that we are going to do "team catch-ups" in CC meetings from now on, so we'll invite people from teams such as governance bodies and talk about a variety of things to improve our cross-team communication, etc. Here's the preliminary schedule: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-council-teams/msg00019.html - please make sure your board/council/team is aware of it.
17:16:43 <dholbach> Thanks :-)
17:17:11 <dholbach> Ok, I just realised that we changed meeting dates, so I'll have to update the schedule.
17:17:27 <dholbach> I'll take that as an action and post it to the ubuntu-council-teams list.
17:17:31 <pleia2> thanks dholbach
17:17:33 <czajkowski> cheers
17:17:36 <akgraner> thanks dholbach
17:17:41 <Gwaihir> great dholbach
17:18:09 <beuno> #info This is the first time we are doing this, but I would like to remind everybody that we are going to do "team catch-ups" in CC  meetings from now on, so we'll invite people from teams such as governance bodies and talk about a variety of things to improve our cross-team communication, etc. Here's the preliminary schedule: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-council-teams/msg00019.html - please make sure your board/council/team is aware o
17:18:29 * beuno stares at meetingology
17:18:31 <dholbach> ...f it. Thanks :-)
17:18:43 <sabdfl> dholbach, can we keep that schedule in the wiki, say, on CommunityCouncilAgenda?
17:18:45 <dholbach> I guess that was TMI
17:18:50 <dholbach> sabdfl, sure
17:18:56 <sabdfl> groovy, thanks
17:19:21 <Gwaihir> might also great to have it in the fridge calendar...
17:19:44 <pleia2> that might be tricky since it's *during* the CC meeting
17:19:59 <YokoZar> I suggest
17:20:01 <dholbach> and it's a recurring event
17:20:01 <czajkowski> i think on the agenda page should be fine
17:20:02 <YokoZar> that We start the meeting with it
17:20:08 <beuno> #action add the team catch-ups to CommunityCouncilAgenda
17:20:08 * meetingology add the team catch-ups to CommunityCouncilAgenda
17:20:28 <YokoZar> I mean as a matter of policy have other teams as guests first on the agenda so that they can leave when they done
17:20:44 <pleia2> YokoZar: good idea
17:20:48 <akgraner> YokoZar, +1
17:20:56 <Gwaihir> YokoZar, +1
17:21:02 * YokoZar remembers an Ubuntu-California meeting that had some international 3AMers present who were made to wait through half an hour of nonsense
17:21:12 <dholbach> yes, sounds good to me
17:21:13 <pleia2> yeah, that wasn't good :(
17:21:31 <czajkowski> :)
17:21:58 <beuno> if memory serves, next up is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam
17:22:03 <pleia2> yep
17:22:19 <pleia2> so I sent an email to the CC list giving us a heads up, but for the benefit of others, here's the related blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-p-designing-and-creating-ubuntu-experiences
17:22:19 <beuno> #topic https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam
17:22:33 <pleia2> essentially the community council will be taking over most of jono's tasks here in guidance
17:22:47 <pleia2> that DesignTeam wiki is slowly coming together, they wrote most of it this morning during their preliminary meeting :)
17:22:57 <wendar> also https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-p-ux-participation
17:23:26 <pleia2> the team hasn't formally been announced, right now they're looking for some structure and guidance and after speaking with doctormo and wendar I offered that the CC would probably be in a good place to do this (since we're already committed to checking in with some other teams this cycle)
17:23:35 <pleia2> thanks for coming, wendar :)
17:23:42 <pleia2> anyone have any questions at this time?
17:23:45 <jono> I agree
17:23:53 <jono> I think the CC can offer some great guidance here
17:24:56 <beuno> pleia2, what would be the channel of communication?
17:25:01 <cjohnston> #ubuntu-design
17:25:05 <cjohnston> currently
17:25:41 <beuno> so the CC should hang out over there?
17:25:58 <pleia2> for actual guidance I'd suggest some CC folks hang out in #ubuntu-design, and we can welcome them to email the CC list at any time (any team can do this of course, but this can be a focus for us)
17:26:18 <pleia2> and maybe do a public check-in at one of our CC meetings per month, but this should all be discussed based on neds
17:26:32 <pleia2> needs
17:27:22 <dholbach> that sounds reasonable - do we have a point of contact there? or do we just "ping/email the team"?
17:27:34 <pleia2> currently I'd say it's doctormo and wendar
17:27:35 <jono> I think a public check in could be useful, make the team feel part of the CC meetings
17:27:37 <mhall119> the team for now, we haven't selected contacts yet
17:27:47 * dholbach nods
17:27:47 <sabdfl> hmm
17:27:55 <pleia2> mhall119: ah, thanks :)
17:28:00 <jono> I think it could be useful to appoint a member of the design team to help coordinate with this
17:28:06 <jono> maybe Charline or someone
17:28:11 <sabdfl> it feels weird to me that the ubuntu design team doesn't include johnlea, mika, oren, calum, christian, mpt...
17:28:20 <sabdfl> this should all be one team
17:28:27 <wendar> sabdfl: they just haven't joined yet
17:28:29 <jono> sabdfl, absolutely
17:28:33 <wendar> charline is a member already
17:28:54 <wendar> and, yes, it is all one
17:28:55 <sabdfl> wendar, they are the founding members, from where i stand ;-)
17:29:01 <YokoZar> I like what I'm seeing so far
17:29:12 <sabdfl> i don't mean to offend, and i think the energy around better engagement is excellent
17:29:23 <sabdfl> but it's wrong to suggest that there was no engagement previously
17:29:26 <wendar> sabdfl: I mean they haven't joined the launchpad team yet, which was created yesterday
17:29:44 <sabdfl> and all is fixed because wendar and doctormo made a lp team ;-)
17:30:06 <dholbach> I think it's more about creating more opportunities
17:30:08 <wendar> would you like to hear more about the longer-term plans here?
17:30:11 <sabdfl> i asked today that design.canonical.com be moved to design.ubuntu.com, and we create accounts there for folk doing great work, regardless of affiliation
17:30:17 <mhall119> dholbach: that's correct
17:30:37 <dholbach> nice
17:30:39 <wendar> the CC feedback would be useful, but also don't want to take up too much of the meeting if this isn't the right time/place
17:30:41 <sabdfl> wendar, i'd like to hear that those longer term plans were agreed with the cats i listed
17:30:59 <wendar> sabdfl: yes
17:31:04 <sabdfl> groovy, then we're ok
17:31:24 <wendar> sabdfl: they're quite enthusiastic about participating
17:31:28 <sabdfl> let's get them all assembled in the team, let's get everyone bloggaging, let's do great work as always
17:31:39 <dholbach> :-)
17:31:52 <sabdfl> i also hope we'll have some new names on the team soon, for whom IRC and mailing lists are the normal channel, rather than a new channel
17:32:01 <sabdfl> sorry, new names on the canonical design team :-)
17:32:43 * YokoZar this reminds me of the separation between "Ubuntu Desktop Team" and "Canonical Desktop Team" from some time ago
17:32:43 <wendar> pleia2: one thing we'd appreciate help with from the CC is in organizing
17:32:57 <czajkowski> wendar: in what way can we help there?
17:33:38 <wendar> particularly, perspectives on setting up our guidelines and culture
17:34:05 <wendar> so, any comments people have on our drafts on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam
17:34:08 <wendar> would be welcome
17:35:06 <czajkowski> wendar: i'll be home later and online and happy to talk you throuigh some stuff if that would help
17:35:15 <czajkowski> or another time that is suitable
17:35:32 <wendar> czajkowski: thanks!
17:35:34 <pleia2> czajkowski: care to join us in #ubuntu-design?
17:35:39 <czajkowski> already there
17:35:43 <pleia2> oh good
17:35:44 <pleia2> :)
17:36:41 <czajkowski> wendar: i'll follow up after meeting with a time we can talk
17:37:05 <beuno> ok, so "The CC to provide support and guidance to ubuntu-design"?
17:37:19 <pleia2> +1
17:37:24 <czajkowski> +1
17:37:54 <akgraner> +1
17:37:58 <Gwaihir> +1
17:38:01 <sabdfl> +2 :-)
17:38:02 <dholbach> +1 from me too
17:38:08 <YokoZar> +1
17:38:23 <beuno> #agreed The CC to provide support and guidance to ubuntu-design
17:38:32 <beuno> #action The CC to provide support and guidance to ubuntu-design
17:38:32 * meetingology The CC to provide support and guidance to ubuntu-design
17:38:46 <beuno> that's it for the known topics
17:38:50 <beuno> any unknown topics?  :)
17:39:04 <akgraner> LC results
17:39:21 <sabdfl> i think we're still discussing
17:39:25 <akgraner> ok
17:39:52 <akgraner> just 3 people expire from team on Saturday - so wanted to bring it up :-)
17:39:57 <sabdfl> right. hmm.
17:39:59 <dholbach> if everybody would have a look at the discussion again and follow up, that'd help
17:42:41 <sabdfl> other topics?
17:44:58 <akgraner> I don't have any more..
17:45:03 <czajkowski> nope.
17:45:06 <czajkowski> beuno: thanks for chairing
17:45:23 <beuno> #endmeeting