21:06:14 <godbyk> #startmeeting.
21:06:14 <meetingology> Meeting started Sun Jan 27 21:06:14 2013 UTC.  The chair is godbyk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
21:06:14 <meetingology> 
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21:06:28 <godbyk> Welcome everyone!
21:06:39 <godbyk> This is the first meeting during the Raring cycle.
21:06:42 <godbyk> #topic Introductions
21:06:55 <godbyk> Since we have some new faces here, why don't we do a quick round of introductions.
21:07:16 <godbyk> if everyone could just write a sentence or two about who they are and what role they currently play (or hope to play) in the Ubuntu Manual Project, that'd be great.
21:07:55 * hannie editors coordinator
21:08:04 * thorwil pokes slickymaster
21:08:08 <godbyk> I'm Kevin Godby. I do a little bit of everything. I work on the LaTeX formatting code, maintain the website, and publish the manuals.
21:08:18 <cqfd93> I'm Sylvie Gallet - I started using Ubuntu in early 2009
21:08:18 <cqfd93> I started doing translations on Launchpad in August 2012, and joined the Ubuntu French Translators Team in September 2012
21:08:18 <cqfd93> I'm now a member of the Ubuntu Manual Team, and editor of the French translation
21:08:51 * rickero is enrico rosina (french translators team) - had some busy weeks generating um with latex for the fr team. (hi all)
21:09:52 * teolemon is Pierre, member of the French team.
21:10:09 <hannie> The French are well represented!
21:10:16 <CarstenG> I'm Carsten, come from Germany. Started with the Ubuntu Manual round about one year ago. I do some translation and was screenshot editor for the Quantal release. And I help a little bit with LaTeX stuff...
21:10:18 <cqfd93> :-)
21:10:27 <JasonO> I'm Jason Odoom and I've just arrived from hiatus and sm now back with the Manual Team. I used to do Marketing/Publicity.
21:10:36 <JasonO> *am
21:11:30 <hannie> teolemon, Pierre = Pierre S?
21:11:37 <teolemon> yup
21:11:41 <hannie> ok
21:12:03 <godbyk> Since thorwil isn't speaking up, I'll point out that he creates the title pages and covers for our manuals. He also handles other artwork for the manual and our website.
21:12:29 <godbyk> It's nice to meet everyone and good to see some new people here.
21:13:02 <CarstenG> ... and some are missing...
21:13:08 <godbyk> #topic Updates on Getting Started with Ubuntu 12.04 and 12.10
21:13:18 <godbyk> I wanted to give a few updates on our previous manual releases.
21:13:25 <godbyk> We've had a lot of new translations recently.
21:13:35 <hannie> quite a few, actually  http://doodle.com/556xqbacyxeuuea38g5h7cia/admin?#table
21:13:41 <godbyk> For 12.04, we've now released the manual in English, Dutch, French, Slovenian, and Spanish.
21:13:54 <godbyk> And for 12.10, we've released the manual in English and French.
21:14:06 <godbyk> A big round of applause and thanks to all the translators!
21:14:42 <godbyk> By the way, if the translation editors would like to write a short release note in their language, I'd be happy to post it to the Ubuntu Manual Facebook page.
21:14:48 <hannie> And those who helped the translators
21:15:02 <CarstenG> Yeah, congratulation to them!
21:15:06 <godbyk> Just email the release message to me at kevin@ubuntu-manual.org and I'll get it posted.
21:15:23 <godbyk> #topic Switching from Lulu.com to CreateSpace.com
21:15:31 <godbyk> You may have also noticed that we've switched printers.
21:15:52 <godbyk> We were having some difficulty in printing our manual with Lulu.com and were unable to figure out what the problem was.
21:16:08 <godbyk> We've switched to CreateSpace.com which seems to be working well so far and has a few added benefits:
21:16:12 <CarstenG> Lulu itself ;-) SCNR
21:16:16 <godbyk> 1. The price of the printed manuals is cheaper.
21:16:19 <hannie> godbyk, why could they print the previous versions but not the last one?
21:16:27 <godbyk> 2. The manuals are now available on Amazon.
21:16:46 <godbyk> hannie: That's a great question that neither I nor the lulu.com tech support team can answer (apparently).
21:16:54 <hannie> ok
21:17:18 <CarstenG> Hannie: They could print the last one. I have 12.10 here ...
21:17:27 <godbyk> If anyone does notice any problems with the printed manuals from CreateSpace.com or Amazon, please let me know.
21:17:42 <hannie> CarstenG, that was not printed by lulu
21:17:56 <godbyk> CarstenG: Well, sort of. 12.10 printed okay for me, but then it failed for you the first time. Then we got it to print for you but it failed for the next person to purchase it. So it was kind of hit and miss.
21:17:57 <CarstenG> Is was...
21:18:49 <godbyk> In any case, I'm hopeful that switching to CreateSpace will resolve the printing problems we were having previously.
21:19:08 <godbyk> Now to get to the topic we've all been waiting for...
21:19:19 <godbyk> #topic Plans for Getting Started with Ubuntu 13.04 (Raring cycle)
21:19:48 <godbyk> If you take a look at the meeting notes at <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HLwhH9I_Q9rZw98tovNy97MnC43bBkaGuXZmHz6r3C4/edit>, you'll see a proposed release schedule.
21:20:18 <godbyk> The proposed schedule is the same as what we used for 12.10 (Quantal) but with the dates shifted accordingly.
21:20:22 <hannie> This may also be useful: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseSchedule
21:21:01 <godbyk> If there were any milestones in 12.10 that you thought came too early�that is, you wanted to spend more time editing or something�let me know and we can try to adjust the Raring schedule.
21:22:03 <godbyk> I'll give everyone a couple minutes to look over the proposed schedule.
21:22:14 <godbyk> If you have any questions or concerns about it, please voice them now.
21:23:29 <hannie> Should authors wait for the Beta Release on March 23?
21:24:19 <hannie> # March 28
21:24:51 <godbyk> hannie: I'm afraid if we wait that long, the editors won't have much time to do their part.
21:25:20 <hannie> True, so Alpha in VirtualBox is what they can use?
21:25:30 <godbyk> If we want to release the manual on the same day as Ubuntu 13.04 (25 April), then that only gives us a month between beta 2 and the release date to write, edit, and proofread everything.
21:26:12 <godbyk> hannie: They should be able to run Ubuntu in a virtual machine, yes.
21:26:32 <CarstenG> Do we have a chance to get the manual into the iso?
21:27:39 <hannie> CarstenG, I'm afraid the iso must be ready before our raring manual is out
21:28:17 <CarstenG> Well, I dont know, wenn they generate the final iso...
21:28:28 <CarstenG> At Final Freeze? 18th april
21:28:32 <godbyk> CarstenG: The timing doesn't work out for us and they're pretty strict about what gets in the ISO, too.
21:28:59 <CarstenG> Sure, I think so... It was just an idea.
21:29:12 <hannie> We can aim at getting it in USC as soon as possible
21:29:27 <rickero> Would it be possible to include a link to the "on line" manual inside the ISO ?
21:29:34 <godbyk> Something I'm also going to look into is creating our own PPA and releasing the manuals through there.
21:29:58 <hannie> ah, that is a good idea!
21:29:58 <godbyk> That way we don't have to wait on the USC process.  We just have to have people add our PPA.
21:30:01 <CarstenG> Hannie: most of the time for this is not in our hands... kevin told..
21:30:49 <CarstenG> Yes, a PPA sounds good-
21:30:53 <CarstenG> .
21:31:19 <hannie> About the feasibility of the release date:
21:31:21 <godbyk> I will look into setting up a PPA and also ask around to see if there's a way we can fast-track our USC submissions.
21:31:42 <hannie> it depends on if we have enough authors/editors to do the job
21:32:02 <hannie> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApS28NMLnYJXdGd1LVl5X2hvNkg2SEZiVzZ2RnYtWHc#gid=0
21:33:20 <hannie> C7P (John) will contact authors of the previous version
21:33:49 <hannie> hey JC, welcome
21:33:50 <CarstenG> Hi John
21:34:49 <godbyk> After c7p hears back from the authors, we'll make a list of open positions and post them to our website and try to find people who will fill those slots.
21:35:20 <hannie> website=mailing list?
21:35:34 <godbyk> hannie: Both.
21:36:02 <hannie> People may also add their name to https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApS28NMLnYJXdGd1LVl5X2hvNkg2SEZiVzZ2RnYtWHc#gid=0
21:36:29 <godbyk> Are there any objections or comments on proposed milestone dates?
21:36:56 <Bobbert> I have added my name where I used to author, but I can fill any changed positions. So sorry I am late.
21:37:10 <CarstenG> One thing for the schedule: I think we should have more time for review...
21:37:13 <hannie> thanks for adding your name, Bobbert
21:37:37 <CarstenG> During translation of precise, I found some things, which are not as they are mentioned in the manual...
21:37:59 <CarstenG> I guess other translators have the same impression?
21:38:58 <Bobbert> Mistakes do happen because the manual has been gradually re-written for the newer versions of Ubuntu.
21:39:16 <godbyk> CarstenG: So you want more time in the Editing phase?  Or the authoring phase?  Or somewhere else?
21:39:36 <CarstenG> editing phase...
21:40:06 <hannie> Ideally, the editors will correct mistakes. But it is impossible to release without any errors
21:40:09 <godbyk> Well, it's okay if the editing extends into the indexing phase a bit.  We have a little leeway there.
21:40:28 <godbyk> If we move up the authoring deadline so the editing can start earlier, then changes may still be made in Ubuntu at the last minute.
21:41:29 <godbyk> The authors should carefully review their assigned sections and test all the procedures on the latest version of Ubuntu.  They should update any out-of-date instructions.
21:41:44 <godbyk> The editors should do the same.
21:42:03 <godbyk> Hopefully with at least two people reviewing each section, there won't be too many errors that slip past.
21:42:20 <Bobbert> but for example the "getting online" or "troubleshooting" sections are hard to do that in.
21:42:35 <hannie> If we can have an author/editor pair for each chapter/section, it can be done
21:43:17 <godbyk> Bobbert: Some of the longer sections may need to be broken up into smaller assignments, I think.
21:43:33 <CarstenG> Yes, John, but troubleshooting will hopefully not have so much changes... It should stay nearly untouched
21:43:39 <hannie> godbyk, that is already the case (see spreadsheet)
21:44:08 <hannie> CarstenG, very true. Some chapters need more attention than others
21:45:09 <CarstenG> yes, I thought sometimes, the text was only copy pasted from lucid to precise (e.g)
21:46:08 <hannie> Much of the text can be used in a newer version
21:46:09 <godbyk> Do you feel that the editing phase was rushed during the Quantal cycle?
21:47:33 <hannie> Editors have to wait until authors are finished, so it depends
21:48:04 <hannie> Not all editors had finished their chapter in time (Ubuntu Desktop)
21:48:16 <hannie> *authors
21:48:42 <godbyk> With the proposed schedule, the authors have about two months and the editors have two weeks.
21:48:55 <hannie> And Jim suggested we should not have the same person working both as an author and an editor
21:49:19 <godbyk> I would say we shouldn't have the same person working as an author and editor for the same section of the manual, at least.
21:49:24 <godbyk> It's hard to see your own mistakes.
21:50:01 <hannie> right, but if we cannot find enough people we have to accept it
21:50:27 <godbyk> hannie: We should then move the editors around if that's the case.
21:50:40 <godbyk> But I don't think we should have someone editing the same section they authored.
21:51:08 <hannie> yes, moving around is an option
21:51:49 <CarstenG> Welcome back Enrico
21:52:04 <Bobbert> We could write one section and edit another, though.
21:52:15 <hannie> Yes, that is the idea
21:52:16 <rickero> oops... been disconnected
21:53:07 <godbyk> If there are no objections, I'll add these milestone dates to Launchpad.  If we need to adjust them a bit later, we can do so.
21:53:20 <hannie> Good
21:53:29 <godbyk> I'll have c7p contact the authors from the 12.10 release and see which of them would like to return for the 13.04 cycle.
21:53:51 <godbyk> Then I'll post job openings for the empty positions to our website, the mailing list, Facebook, etc.
21:54:07 <CarstenG> When  I look to the list, I see much editors, but only a few authors...
21:54:10 <hannie> I have already done a call for editors, and had several responses
21:54:39 <hannie> CarstenG, that's because I did my call before c7p
21:54:51 <godbyk> I would suggest that any authors and editors start familiarizing themselves with any updates in Ubuntu 13.04 that affect their sections of the manual.
21:55:05 <godbyk> We already have a raring bzr branch on Launchpad, so people can start writing and editing now.
21:55:19 <hannie> godbyk, good idea, Perhaps this should be mailed to the list
21:55:27 <godbyk> hannie: I'll do that.
21:55:55 <slickymaster> good night, all. Sorry for being late
21:56:05 <godbyk> G'night, slickymaster. Thanks for coming!
21:56:09 <rickero> hello
21:56:13 <godbyk> #topic Any other business
21:56:25 <godbyk> Are there any other topics that we should discuss?
21:56:41 <godbyk> Does anyone have any questions, comments, concerns, criticisms, etc. that they'd like to raise?
21:56:45 <hannie> perhaps slickymaster can introduce himself?
21:56:48 <slickymaster> It's my first time here, but I really want to contribute
21:56:57 <CarstenG> Hi slickymaster
21:57:15 <slickymaster> How can I help?
21:57:26 <CarstenG> How yo want to help?
21:57:30 <CarstenG> you
21:57:36 <CarstenG> :-)
21:57:41 <hannie> slickymaster, you can become an author/editor/translator
21:58:02 <cqfd93> A question to authors/editors:
21:58:02 <cqfd93> translators really had a hard time translating and reviewing very long paragraphs (some of them have more than 3,000 characters)
21:58:02 <cqfd93> is it possible to split them into several smaller ones (only for paragraphs that will be new in raring)?
21:58:15 <hannie> JasonO, how about you? Any aspirations to become an author or editor?
21:58:36 <CarstenG> Sylvie, I have done some splittings until now
21:58:44 <godbyk> cqfd93: Agreed. CarstenG has been splitting up some of the larger paragraphs in the past couple days.
21:58:53 <slickymaster> I'll be glad to help anyway you think would advisable
21:58:56 <cqfd93> great news!!!
21:58:58 <CarstenG> e.g. Thunderbid
21:59:15 <cqfd93> I remember that one...
21:59:17 <CarstenG> there was two paragraphs, nearly one page...
21:59:20 <hannie> slickymaster, did you have a look here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApS28NMLnYJXdGd1LVl5X2hvNkg2SEZiVzZ2RnYtWHc#gid=0
21:59:33 <slickymaster> no, I'll do it now
21:59:57 <hannie> You may add your name to a chapter or section if you like
21:59:59 <CarstenG> Sylvie, build the raring, and have a look to it. Tell me if its better noe.
22:00:00 <cqfd93> what, exactly, is an editor's job?
22:00:20 <CarstenG> You proofread the content
22:00:36 <Bobbert> and make sure instructions work
22:00:36 <CarstenG> And check if the instructions and descriptions are right.
22:00:45 <godbyk> cqfd93: Proofreading, ensuring that the text and instructions are factually correct, making sure the writing is easy to read and understand, etc.
22:00:46 <hannie> proofread for errors and check the contents
22:00:59 <hannie> see if there is any inconsistancy
22:01:32 <hannie> cqf you would be very good at that
22:01:48 <slickymaster> and the work would exactly what, translating, making sure instructions work, something else?
22:01:56 <rickero> ok thanks, it was not clear for me what is the difference between author and editor
22:01:59 <slickymaster> would be, sorry the typo
22:02:08 <cqfd93> I'm very good at finding typos...
22:02:53 <hannie> slickymaster, translating is another job. Here we are talking about making the English version of the manual
22:03:04 <CarstenG> slickymaster: Translation starts first after the release. At the moment we need authors and editors.
22:03:22 <JasonO> hannie: No, none at all. Atleast for this release.
22:04:08 <hannie> JasonO, but you do want to help promoting?
22:04:40 <slickymaster> Alright, got it. What is specifically the work of an author / editor?
22:04:41 <JasonO> Yeah and other jobs that are available.
22:05:14 <CarstenG> So Slickymaster: Do you know the new raring well? new features? You like to write good descriptions?
22:05:22 <CarstenG> Then you are an author.
22:05:29 <hannie> godbyk, I am sure you have a job for JasonO
22:05:46 <CarstenG> If you like to proofread and check, then you are an editor.
22:06:09 <godbyk> hannie: I could definitely use JasonO's help!
22:06:13 <slickymaster> I haven't tried it yet
22:06:30 <CarstenG> It's always the first time. :-)
22:06:50 <JasonO> godbyk: Awesome. :)
22:07:28 <godbyk> JasonO: It'd be great if you could help come up with some ideas on how to promote our manuals when we release new ones (English and translations).
22:07:38 <hannie> slickymaster, is there any subject you are particularly interested in, like Browsing the web, or Getting online for instance
22:07:45 <godbyk> JasonO: Also, we'll need help attracting some attention to fill some author and editor roles soon.
22:07:56 <teolemon> we've just done a media blitz for French
22:08:05 <teolemon> there was some French specific stuff
22:08:08 <JasonO> godbyk: Alright, I'll work on it.
22:08:24 <teolemon> but i'll list the steps we took
22:08:32 <hannie> teolemon, any idea if may people download the French translation?
22:08:36 <godbyk> JasonO: I'll email you soon with some more info, too.
22:08:42 <slickymaster> well, I'm a java developer, professionally.
22:08:52 <JasonO> godbyk: Thanks.
22:08:54 <teolemon> may people ?
22:09:29 <hannie> #many
22:09:41 <hannie> *many ;)
22:10:06 <slickymaster> Getting online and Browsing the web, no matter which one
22:10:30 <slickymaster> I would have to what?
22:10:41 <hannie> slickymaster, just have a look at the spreadsheet and see if there is a chapter/section you like to help with (author or editor)
22:11:53 <hannie> To all, feel free to add your name to the spreadsheet
22:12:12 <rickero> about the "download" question: I think the manuel is not visible enough. When I select "Applications => Help" menu, nothing tells me about it.
22:12:30 <hannie> Ok, so there is work to do for JasonO
22:12:43 <slickymaster> As I'm starting, I think it would be advisable to help as editor, to get a better knowledge how everything works, don't you think so?
22:13:13 <CarstenG> rickero: Where are you?
22:13:28 <rickero> CarstenG: what?
22:13:33 <hannie> slickymaster, please send an email to our mailing list and I send you some information
22:13:56 <CarstenG> "Applications => Help" where is this?
22:13:58 <teolemon> we're making sure that as many ppl as possible will download it: we've spammed: forums/planet/wiki/google+/facebook/twitter/the translator's website
22:14:26 <teolemon> (not spammed of course, but you see my point)
22:14:36 <teolemon> and we may get an article in linuxfr.org
22:14:41 <hannie> sounds good. Let's hope it will spread fast
22:14:47 <godbyk> teolemon: Nice!
22:14:56 <rickero> CarstenG: oh i don't have unity... it's the applications menu. But I think if you type "help" in the dash it will be the same
22:15:21 <JasonO> Do we ever have an exact number of how many times the Manual has been downloaded? Or maybe that can be implemented in the future?
22:15:29 <teolemon> we plan to make it standard in the French iso as well
22:15:35 <slickymaster> hannie: ok, do you want me write anything in particular in the email, or that's not necessary?
22:15:38 <hannie> rickero, when you type help you get the official Desktop Guide (Ubuntu docs)
22:16:04 <hannie> slickymaster, it is just so I have your email address
22:16:34 <godbyk> JasonO: I do have those numbers, though there's a bit of a pain to extract at the moment.
22:16:39 <rickero> hannie: that's what I'm saying, nothing suggests me to download a manual
22:17:18 <godbyk> rickero: True. There's no download link within Ubuntu at the moment.
22:17:35 <slickymaster> hannie. I'll do it now
22:17:35 <hannie> ok, so you want a link to the manual to come up when you type help in the Dash
22:17:35 <godbyk> rickero: The best we have at the moment is that you can find the manual in the Software Center.
22:17:41 <CarstenG> Enrico: Ah I see. you mean, we should place a note in this help manual to our UM?
22:17:41 <hannie> slickymaster, thanks
22:18:43 <rickero> exactly... this is what I meant. There can be downloads only if people see something about the manual
22:19:37 <godbyk> rickero: Yes. Right now the best we can do is to do a great job marketing it and making it popular and well-known.
22:19:45 <godbyk> JasonO is going to help us with that. ;-)
22:19:56 <CarstenG> So we need someone, who will update the ubuntu-docs package...
22:20:11 <JasonO> :)
22:20:16 <godbyk> CarstenG: That'd be the Ubuntu docs team (see #ubuntu-doc).
22:20:22 <slickymaster> hannie: Done.
22:20:47 <godbyk> In addition to the marketing and making the manual well-know, we need to ensure that the manual is accurate and up-to-date.
22:21:16 <godbyk> So we need to be careful when we're writing and editing to make sure the manual is correct and easy to read, etc.
22:22:38 <hannie> Quality is very important indeed
22:23:02 <hannie> I also would like to get more feedback, so we know what people think of our manual
22:23:07 <CarstenG> Sure, this was my point with the review process...
22:23:31 <rickero> kevin: you also said : "any questions, comments, concerns, criticisms, etc"... I have 2 things in mind":
22:23:32 <hannie> I heard from someone who has a project in Africa that she was very happy with the printed version
22:23:53 <hannie> because there is not always electricity to read the screen version
22:24:12 <CarstenG> Hannie: You mean pleia2?
22:24:13 <godbyk> hannie: For requesting feedback, direct people to email feedback@ubuntu-manual.org.
22:24:13 <rickero> 2 different persons asked me if it would be possible to have the texts "justified" in LaTex
22:24:21 <hannie> CarstenG, right
22:24:45 <CarstenG> Hi Tony7
22:24:50 <CarstenG> -7
22:24:51 <hannie> hey TonyP better late than never ;)
22:25:16 <TonyP> sorry - I really need to be reminded earlier
22:25:28 <CarstenG> Enrico, what do you mean with "justified"
22:25:31 <CarstenG> ?
22:25:33 <godbyk> rickero: It is but there are a couple issues.  (1) It means we have to do a bit more editing to prevent overly long lines, and (2) justified text is actually a bit more difficult to read.
22:25:50 <godbyk> rickero: The ragged-right text is a bit friendlier.
22:26:01 <TonyP> I agree
22:26:09 <rickero> CarstenG: Justified = adapted so each line has th same lenght
22:26:27 <CarstenG> ah ok
22:27:32 <hannie> godbyk, I think that was my preference too (justified)
22:27:33 <rickero> kevin: I can live with the current display. just giving the feedback you asked
22:27:59 <Bobbert> I must go have lunch, so bye everyone. I will get writing soon :D. It would be good if the Manual was mentioned somewhere on the Ubuntu site, though to be honest.
22:28:02 <godbyk> hannie: Yes, I've heard a few other people ask about it, too.
22:28:09 <godbyk> Bobbert: Thanks for coming!
22:28:26 <slickymaster> I agree with rickero. Justified text is easier to read
22:28:33 <hannie> But like rickero says, it is only meant as feedback
22:28:37 <godbyk> rickero: I understand. Thanks!  Was there a second piece of feedback?
22:28:42 <hannie> bye Bobbert
22:28:44 <cqfd93> I agree with rickero
22:28:56 <JasonO> Bye Bobbert
22:29:13 <godbyk> slickymaster: Actually, the opposite is true from what I've read. With justified text, the word spacing is variable so it's more difficult for your eyes to follow along the line.
22:29:31 * hannie will leave in a minute
22:29:57 <godbyk> I'll end this meeting before I forget but everyone is welcome to hang around and chat more.
22:30:04 <godbyk> Thanks, everyone, for coming!
22:30:06 <godbyk> #endmeeting